Monica Swanson: Is there anything more humble or generous than doing the dishes without being asked? Obviously, the point isn’t necessarily doing the dishes, but the heart behind them. Our goal is to raise each of our kids into a young man or woman who has a servant’s heart and doesn’t shrink back from doing hard things. And ordinary tasks like washing a sink full of dishes is often the training ground to get there.

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John Fuller: Hmm. That’s the heart of a mom and such great parenting perspective from Monica Swanson. She wants to help you raise amazing kids who have godly character in everything they do. Welcome to another episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller. We’re glad you joined us.

Jim Daly: John, I believe getting your kids to wash the dishes regularly is a good thing and a great idea. I think for us it was getting, uh, the washing done. So Jean was terrific. She got the boys washing their own clothes at about age 10.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: (laughs), and that was awesome. Uh, and dishes came along too, so they were pretty good with chores generally.

John: Yeah.

Jim: Uh, but children need to know the value of hard work and experience the satisfaction of a job well done. I think we all need that. And of course, that’s only one of the many important life lessons that moms and dads should be passing along to their kids. I often think about how busy families are today. Uh, the pace of life can be so hectic that you may find yourself sacrificing time for all the so-called important stuff-

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and not spending time with your kids and really passing the values onto them, which is what the research shows. You know, spending time at the dinner table is where a lot of that action occurs. Again, Jean was awesome at making sure we had dinner regularly and, and together, and there was, I don’t think we missed it. Uh, it was 6:00, 6:30 every night and it really worked well. And in my opinion, you think about it, God’s given parents that awesome responsibility to parent your children. Right?

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And we’re gonna talk about that today and how to have not behavioral outcomes, but outcomes from the heart-

John: Yes.

Jim: … which are far more important.

John: Right. And our guest today has a passion, uh, much like you expressed, to lay a godly foundation for children and to help them become the men and women that God intended them to be. Uh, Monica Swanson is a homeschooling mom. She’s a blogger, author, speaker and podcast host. And, uh, she and her husband Dave, have four sons ranging in age from 24 to 13. Uh, she has a really wonderful book we’re gonna be talking about today called Raising Amazing: Bringing Up Kids Who Love God, Like Their Family, and Do the Dishes Without Being Asked.

Jim: (laughs).

John: It’s a great title and, uh, you can learn more about the book at our website, and that’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Monica, welcome to Focus.

Monica: So good to be here.

Jim: Yeah. You’re coming in from Hawaii. That’s kind of nice. Sorry to bring it to the Rocky Mountains all the way from Hawaii.

Monica: Oh, it’s beautiful here.

Jim: (laughs).

Monica: It’s so great to be here.

Jim: Just a little different.

Monica: Yes. A little chilly.

Jim: Yeah. It’s good to have you. Um, let’s pick up on the washing dishes.

Monica: (laughs).

Jim: So you got four boys and a husband, so five guys. Is this the reason why dishes are so important to you?

Monica: (laughs) it is. You know, I think all parrots will agree that chores are tough. And I spent a lot of years trying to just figure out how in the world to come up with a system to do chores, but at some point we nailed it. We got things going where everybody kind of had their rotation. And I remember it was my son, my son Luke, who one day said, “You know, it’s hard to imagine anyone just doing the dishes without being asked who doesn’t have good character. Right?”

Jim: (laughs).

Monica: And I was like, you know, you’ve got a good point. That is kind of a good litmus test for character.

Jim: Man. And what age was he when he came to that conclusion?

Monica: Feel like he was probably 16.

Jim: Yeah, that’s good.

Monica: He’s gotten the hang by then.

Jim: No, that’s about right. I think we begin to see those buy-in-

Monica: Yeah.

Jim: … signs-

Monica: Right.

Jim: … in the teens.

Monica: Yes.

Jim: Uh, you know, they started go, “Okay, yeah, I get it now.”

Monica: Yeah.

Jim: You know, the thing for me and for Jean was how many times did you tell your kids? And maybe it’s a boy thing. So you’ve got the girls at the table, John.

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Maybe girls pick up faster, but please and thank you.

Monica: Oh, yeah.

Jim: I mean, you would say that a thousand times.

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And then finally one day you hear them say it and you go-

Monica: Right.

Jim: … “Oh my gosh. You did it. It stuck.”

Monica: Yay. Right.

John: (laughs).

Jim: I didn’t know…for years…say “thank you.”

Monica: Yes.

Jim: “Thank you,” (laughs).

Monica: Exactly.

Jim: Finally, one day they say it on their own, you’re going the first step.

Monica: It’s so true.

Jim: Yay (laughs).

Monica: Yes. Yes. Teaching those basics.

Jim: Well, you describe yourself as an all in parent, so define what the all-in parenting is.

Monica: Yes. Well, all-in parenting is really, I believe about the heart, because most of us, you know, I share the story in Raising Amazing that my first son had some difficulties at birth. And, and, um, he was transferred to a, um, a neonatal ICU and we were really worried for his life. And in that moment, I felt something I’d never experienced before. And most new parents probably know that feeling of like, “I would do anything for you. I would, I would lay down my life for you. I would fight a bear for you.” Just that, that emotional all in. But then give me a rainy day with a bunch of toddlers at my feet who won’t stop bickering or saying, “Mommy, watch me one more time.” And suddenly you’re like, looking for an escape route. “How can I get outta here?” It’s, you don’t feel that all in feeling anymore. So that’s where I talk about all in being something I’ve discovered has to take more than feelings, more than something happening in your life that makes you feel all in. But really, it’s a commitment. And much like marriage, it’s something that we have to choose intentionally to show up on when they need us desperately. But also on those more mundane days where you’re just maybe a little bit bored with parenting, but can you keep showing up, keeping your vision on the long-term goals of raising up amazing kids?

Jim: You know, so often I think we get blurry eyed about that, what that means-

Monica: Oh, yeah.

Jim: … you know, to be all in, but to have that intentionality-

Monica: Oh, yeah.

Jim: … uh, because I think we do write on the fumes of emotions-

Monica: Yes.

Jim: … unfortunately.

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And so that’s true in marriage. That’s true in friendships. It’s true in parenting.

Monica: Yep.

Jim: And, and I want you to hit it again because I think I want people to clearly hear, you know, you’re waking up choosing-

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … to say the right thing, choosing to do the right thing.

Monica: Right.

Jim: And for most of us, the reality is that can be tough sometimes.

Monica: It absolutely can. And I think what I’ve learned is it really does take giving yourself some reminders. If you’re just going through the motions of life, we’re all busy and it’s easy to just kind of forget this calling we have to train up our children, this calling we have to raise up kids on the good days, the bad days, and everything in between. And sometimes it’s a lot easier to, to say, “You know, go ahead, go to the neighbors. Go ahead, sit in front of the iPad a little longer.” Anything to give us a break. But what if we lean in, in those moments and say, you know, we all need breaks. Yes, of course we do. But to lean in and say, what could I be doing right now to shape their hearts? How can I lean in and really embrace the season of motherhood, fatherhood? Because the years will fly by, even though-

Jim: They really do.

Monica: Yeah.

Jim: When you were, uh, a mom of younger boys-

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … I mean, you still have a 13-year-old.

Monica: Yes.

Jim: So you’re in the groove still.

Monica: (laughs) yeah.

Jim: But, uh, you confessed in the book that it wasn’t always easy.

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You weren’t some miraculous-

Monica: Oh, no.

Jim: … saint.

Monica: No.

Jim: You might be today. I don’t know. You know-

Monica: Still not (laughs).

Jim: … but I mean, you know, talk about the realness of being that busy mom with all these things going on. You had three kids under-

Monica: Yes.

Jim: … in five years, right?

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So-

Monica: I did.

Jim: … you were a little hectic-

Monica: I did.

Jim: … I would imagine.

Monica: Yes. And, and we had moved to Hawaii from my husband’s medical residency, which of course, Hawaii is wonderful, but I was pretty lonely over there. We didn’t have family. I didn’t have any friends yet.

Jim: Oh, so isolation was also part of that. Yeah.

Monica: Oh, absolutely. So there were, um, some really long days, some hard seasons where I found myself at the end of my, my patience and, um, really having to reevaluate and say, what is this calling of motherhood? And how can I be more intentional and not just be going by emotions?

Jim: Yeah. The, uh, you know, that mom that’s listening, that’s still in that 3-year-old, 5-year-old, 6-year-old face (laughs), you know?

Monica: Yeah.

Jim: And people are, the little people are pulling on her-

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and tugging her. Did you ever have that moment of an aha where you went, “Okay,” the intentionality back to that where you-

Monica: Sure.

Jim: … you kind of got a key to figure out a little bit more oxygen for the day? Was there something that really sparked for you?

Monica: Yes. Well, I think probably what happened to me was just recognizing when I was losing my patience, and it was becoming a cycle. And I, I do talk about that in this book that I, I did have some times where I was finding myself losing my temper, feeling shame and regret, and then coming to my kids and asking forgiveness. And, and there was one time that I had a, a moment with my oldest son where I came to him and asked forgiveness because I had lost my temper. And, and he looked at me with his sweet eyes and said, “Mom, of course I forgive you, but I don’t know why you ask ’cause you’re just gonna do it again.”

Jim: Wow.

Monica: And that is probably the moment-

Jim: It is.

Monica: … that really, um, pierced my heart. And when I went, “You know what, it’s time to take this seriously. And, and you need to get some accountability and get some prayer and do things differently so that you can find more meaning and purpose in motherhood and not just be going by emotions.”

Jim: You know, and in that example, what’s so good about that and that awareness for you is something else that you mentioned. And it’s that living life in such a way that your kids are seeing real.

Monica: Yes, yes.

Jim: You know, that we’re not perfect, we’re gonna make mistakes.

Monica: Absolutely.

Jim: But also we are professing faith in Christ.

Monica: Yes.

Jim: And as they get older and they’re reading the word in Sunday school and going to church with you, and they start putting two and two together.

Monica: Yes.

Jim: So it is important for us to model-

Monica: Oh, yeah.

Jim: … Christian behavior-

Monica: Yes.

Jim: … to our kids. They’re probably the ones in the seat of power in that regard.

Monica: Mm-hmm. Right.

Jim: They see us at our best and at our worst.

Monica: They do. They do.

Jim: So let me put a cap on that example you gave. So, I mean, this is, this is the extra content for everybody.

Monica: (laughs).

Jim: How did you get ahold of that anger issue so your kids saw a change?

Monica: Right. Well, it was shortly after, within a day or two of that moment that I, um, had heard about a, a prayer meeting that was going on in Honolulu. And my husband got home from work one day and I said, “Babe, I gotta go. This is like, I’m ready to really take this serious and bring it to somebody else.” So I got prayer and then I started just looking for resources. And thankfully I have some great mentors who I could reach out to and say, “Will you gimme some advice? I’m sure you’ve been through this to some extent.” And thank God for mentors in our life-

Jim: Yeah.

Monica: … because they really walked me through that. And then I think it was just holding myself accountable and really-

Jim: Yeah.

Monica: … um, finding greater vision and meaning. And that’s really how my parenting then developed into what it is today where I get to encourage others in the same thing.

Jim: No, and that’s great.

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And I think that initiative-

Monica: Yeah.

Jim: … to make the change was a great decision.

Monica: Yeah.

Jim: And obviously your kids saw a change.

Monica: Yes. I’m so grateful.

Jim: And they said, “Oh, mommy, you’re not angry anymore-”

Monica: (laughs).

Jim: “… that’s a good thing.”

Monica: Right.

Jim: Yeah.

Monica: There’s still moments, but (laughs).

Jim: One of the, one of the phrases that you used in Raising Amazing is something pretty funny-

Monica: (laughs).

Jim: … and I’ll go slow so everybody can follow along, but parent-a-mor-pho-sis (laughs).

Monica: Yes.

Jim: A parent-morphose (laughs).

Monica: Parentamorphosis, I believe, we say.

Jim: Parental metamorphosis. So explain the breakdown of the word.

Monica: (laughs). I will. I will. Well, if you look online for a progressive insurance, there’s some commercials out there. There’s a Dr. Rick who-

Jim: (laughs) they’re pretty funny.

Monica: They are hilarious. And my husband and I’ve gone on and, and watched, um, many of them. And Dr. Rick calls himself a parental life coach, I believe, but-

Jim: Oh yeah, that’s it.

Monica: Yeah.

Jim: Yeah.

Monica: So his, his point is, is he can’t stop you from becoming like your parents, but they can bundle your home and life insurance-

Jim: (laughs).

Monica: … or something along those lines.

Jim: This, this is a free advertisement.

Monica: Exactly.

Jim: But it is funny.

Monica: It is funny. And you can’t help but watch his commercials and you’re like, “Oh my goodness, I am already becoming just like my mom or my dad.” And I think that we all know deep down that that kids are very likely to become like us. And so as much as it’s important to teach them all the right things, it’s even more important that we live a life that we hope that they’ll wanna model.

Jim: Yeah. That is so good.

Monica: Yeah.

Jim: I’m thinking of don’t talk in the elevator (laughs), that’s one of his, uh, things he coaches.

Monica: Yes, he does.

Jim: Uh, don’t talk in the elevator. Uh, you talk about a lonely season when your boys were teenagers.

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I think that’s probably true for moms raising boys.

Monica: Yeah.

Jim: I’m not sure again, with the girls ’cause I didn’t, you didn’t have that experience, John.

Monica: Right.

Jim: But you can pitch in here. Um, tell us what was going on in that lonely feeling and then how your family navigated or helped you with that.

Monica: Sure. Yes. Well, I suppose depending on where you live in the community you have available. I think that if we’re raising kids who are choosing to walk with the Lord as they hit those tween and teenage years, and there’s really that narrow path, which when they’re little sometimes doesn’t seem that complicated, maybe they go to church and you can help choose their friends and, and it all seems pretty simple. But then they hit that stage of life where a lot of their friends are starting to make their own choices and maybe turning away from those values that they were raised with. And each of my boys have hit that point where they’re like, “Wow, my friends are getting narrower and narrower. And pretty soon I, some of those kids that I thought I could hang out with, they’re not making very good choices. So I have to decide, am I gonna go along with them and hang out with them and maybe hope to be a good influence on them?” Um, which they came to us and we talked about it and we were like, “You know, there’s a time to bring them in. Let’s invite them to our home. Let’s do some things with them.” But really we didn’t want to expose them to a lifestyle that we knew would not be good for them. It was much more likely that they would be influenced by their friends-

Jim: Yeah.

Monica: … especially in a group setting than that their friends would be influenced by them. And so we had to set some boundaries and just say, “You know, this for this season. I think that’s a hard no.” And I look back now and think, wow, it was during those years that our kids really developed not only their relationship with God as their best friend, but they developed hobbies and passions. They started playing music, doing photography. They spent more time at home. Yes. And maybe it didn’t seem very cool at the time, but I think our family was pretty cool to hang out with. And looking back, they might admit it to.

Jim: (laughs).

Monica: But it, it was a lonely season. And, and I think at the time you can’t help but wonder, “Oh, would it be better off if we just let them hang out with these other kids?” But now they’ve thanked us and they’ve said, “You really saved-”

Jim: Yeah.

Monica: “… us from some bad choices.”

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Yeah. And I think, you know, again, being a, an engaged parent.

Monica: Hmm.

Jim: I mean that’s what you were demonstrating.

Monica: Absolutely.

Jim: I think, you know, again, Jean did a great job with that ’cause when the kids were in elementary school, she noticed she went and did some volunteering-

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … at the elementary school, which was good.

Monica: Yep.

Jim: So she saw what the playground activity was all about.

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And, uh, she was a little concerned I remember and-

Monica: Sure.

Jim: … but she started a bible study with the families that she felt would be really strong and a good influence-

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … with Trent and his friends.

Monica: Yeah.

Jim: And that ended up, those friends are still best friends today.

Monica: Yeah. Yes.

Jim: So that, that worked really well-

Monica: Yes.

Jim: … and, uh, for the same reasons.

Monica: Yes.

Jim: And you can do something like that and have a lot of fun.

John: Well, that’s encouraging to hear. And Monica Swanson is our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. We’re hearing about her book Raising Amazing. And we’d recommend you get a copy of that. Uh, you can do so when you call 800 the letter A and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: You know, picking up on that, uh, idea of the Friends.

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You mentioned the book, the, the Rule of Five or-

Monica: (laughs).

Jim: … you know, the idea of five.

Monica: Sure.

Jim: That most people have five-

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … close relationships and you challenge your kids, I think.

Monica: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jim: … who are the five in your life-

Monica: Right.

Jim: … that fit that description.

Monica: Absolutely.

Jim: Describe that, if I’m clunky with it.

Monica: Yes. No.

Jim: But what you’re going after?

Monica: You’re right. Well, I’ve just read a few different, in a few different places, research has shown that, you know, you’re most likely to become like the five people you surround yourself with. So I think it’s good for all-

Jim: Yeah.

Monica: … of us to consider who are those people. But to broaden it even more, I say today, what are the five influences? So that could be, um, an online influence, somebody you-

Jim: Yeah.

Monica: … follow on social media.

Jim: Right.

Monica: If you’re a gamer, what are the five influences that you surround yourself with every day? And are those influences that you want to become like? So I think it’s a great challenge for all of us. And we’ve had many conversations with our kids and you know, throughout scripture, the theme is the same that we do become like the company we keep. King Solomon talked about, that whoever walks with the wise will become wise, but a companion of fools will suffer harm. And, and then Paul reflects that also in the New Testament. And I think we, no one can deny it. Right. Kids might wanna argue with you and say, “Oh no, they’re my friends, I’m not gonna become like them.” But there’s no denying, we all do.

Jim: Yeah.

Monica: So I think it’s really, really important to be on top of those influences and to have some hard conversations with our kids about that.

Jim: Monica, one of the things that concerns me a lot is, you know, we as Christian parents particularly and Christian moms, I think even more particularly, we really aim at, um, behavior control.

Monica: Hmm. Yeah.

Jim: And I’m interested in this because in the book you talk about your journey-

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … kind of from that orientation, which I think is pretty natural when the kids are younger.

Monica: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jim: You are doing behavior modification. You want them-

Monica: Yes.

Jim: … to say, please and thank you.

Monica: Yes, you do.

Jim: You want them to do the chores. You want them to, you’re modeling the character and then requiring them to kind of get in line with that-

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … uh, approach. But you do speak to this realization that in the big arc of life-

Monica: Yeah.

Jim: … what you’re trying to do as a parent is not just behavior modification, you know, you’re just not trying to get the outcome there.

Monica: Exactly.

Jim: You, you’ve got to speak to their hearts-

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … so they want to do the right thing.

Monica: Oh, yes.

Jim: That’s a far more important, really, uh, eternal-

Monica: Yes.

Jim: … consequence.

Monica: Yes.

Jim: So speak to that journey, ’cause I know a lot of Christian parents-

Monica: Oh, yeah.

Jim: … live in this space of behavior.

Monica: Oh, yes.

Jim: And we have to move to shaping the heart.

Monica: Hmm.

Jim: What did that look like for you?

Monica: Oh, goodness. It is a true struggle and I think we all walk through that.

Jim: And I think that struggle is normal.

Monica: Yes.

Jim: You know, you-

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … it’s, ’cause what you get on the other end is a lot of passivity.

Monica: Yes.

Jim: And that’s not good either. I think generally migrating from higher behavioral control-

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … to more heart shaping-

Monica: Absolutely.

Jim: … is like the journey from 3, 4, 5, 6 to 15, 16, 17, 18.

Monica: You are right.

Jim: It is very normal.

Monica: Yes. It is very normal. And I think that when they’re young, there’s nothing wrong with focusing on those manners, please and thank you.

Jim: Correct.

Monica: However, I think the greatest thing we can focus on with our kids is that they would know God’s love, that they would understand his desire to have a relationship with them. Because we cannot shape our kids’ hearts as much as me, we may want to, we, only God can do that. And so it’s really through a relationship with him that they’re gonna find that inspiration. My oldest son will say, “Mom,” you know, when I’ve asked him what was the inspiration? He, he’s a firstborn. He’s got really great character. But I’ve said, what’s the inspiration? You know, was it our great parenting? He’s like, “Honestly, mom, I just knew that God could see everything I’ve done and everything that I do, and I wanna please him.” And so that’s something you can’t force, right?

Jim: Yeah.

Monica: So we need to pray for our kids and we need to just make sure that they understand that this isn’t about religion, but about a relationship with God through Jesus. And I think that once they catch that, then it’s really out of our hands and it’s more between them and God.

Jim: And it’s so critical. I, I just hope people catch that. If you get the book just for that reason, I would encourage you to do that. That’ll make parenting so much more pleasurable and different.

Monica: Absolutely.

Jim: And I think your outcomes are actually gonna be far better.

Monica: Yes.

Jim: Because when we linger in that behavioral side, we actually can push our kids away from the Lord-

Monica: We-

Jim: … ironically.

Monica: Yes, we definitely can.

Jim: Yeah. Uh, let me ask you to explain why you urge moms and dads to speak plainly to their kids about the value of good character traits. I mean, I love this again.

Monica: Oh, yeah.

Jim: Rather than like, speak at their language level.

Monica: (laughs). Yes.

Jim: You know, you need to be good because, but to just-

Monica: Right.

Jim: … plainly say this is it.

Monica: Yes. Well, it’s kind of a, a, something that’s been lost, I think in today’s culture is that focus on character. And we want character to grow out of a heart that wants to please God. But there’s no denying character is gonna benefit them in every way. If they wanna have good relationships, character is gonna matter, if they want to get a job. I mean, just showing up for work on time and being fully present at work is gonna make them stand out from other people. So character’s important for grades, for sports, pretty much everything our kids want in life is gonna be connected to good character. And so I think it’s important to just walk them through that, have those conversations. Say, “What are you hoping to do in the next year? Well, guess what? Good character’s gonna help with that.” And then help them connect the dots between their character now and who they wanna be.

Jim: So Jonah, one of your sons had some, you know, normal difficulties.

Monica: Uh-huh. Yeah.

Jim: And it’s great that Jonah allowed you to write about it.

Monica: Yes. Yes.

Jim: Thank you, Jonah, for this.

Monica: (laughs).

Jim: And Trent and Troy-

Monica: Bless him.

Jim: … be right with Jonah. So this is, you know, Jonah, you’re pretty, pretty normal.

Monica: (laughs). Yes.

Jim: But what happened with Jonah, you put him in like a little character training time?

Monica: I did, I did.

Jim: (laughs). So what did yours look like (laughs)?

Monica: Oh my goodness. Well, I was frustrated because I was like, we’ve taught him everything.

Jim: (laughs).

Monica: And when he was little, like this was so easy. And now all of a sudden he’s a young teenager and there was just these new issues that came up that were all really came down to character. And so I just had an inspiration. I like to think it was from the Lord. I had prayed long and hard over this. And I was like, maybe he needs somebody outside of mom and dad talking to him about character. So I kinda gathered some podcast, YouTube channels, Ted Talks, anything I could find that was character related. And I gave him a list and I gave him a blank journal. And I said, “Every day, in addition to your, you know, devotional time and whatever else, I want you to spend 30 minutes either reading from a book or watching something. And then I want you to write down the date, ’cause I’m gonna check this one. This isn’t your private journal. This is something I’m gonna look at, the date, what you watched or read or listened to, and then one nugget, write down something you got from that.”

Jim: Oh, okay.

Monica: And initially, of course, the first question you can imagine was, “Well, are the brothers doing it?” (laughs). I said, “No, but this isn’t about the brothers. This is about you.”

Jim: Oh, good answer.

Monica: Yes. We parent individually. And at first, he might write one line, but after a couple weeks, amazingly, he was writing full pages.

Jim: Wow.

Monica: And pretty soon there were note cards posted above his desk with a, a bible verse or a quote from someone. And over time he became a, a podcast junkie. And to this day, he loves to listen to great preachers and read great books. And I think something clicked there where he started to realize, “Wow, there’s some inspiring people out there.”

Jim: Hmm.

Monica: And then, you know, it took some time, but pretty soon he had walk in the room and instead of being ready for him to be critical or complain, I would see it was almost like you could see the wheels turning and he would think before he spoke and, um, you could tell that he was starting to really embrace good character for himself.

Jim: Yeah. That’s good.

Monica: Yeah.

Jim: Um, maybe we could compile a list of those things.

Monica: (laughs). Yeah.

Jim: I think, I think a lot of parents would-

John: Monica’s list.

Monica: Yeah.

Jim: … would like… Yeah. Uh, of those good podcasts to have your kids listen to you, the teenagers.

Monica: Well, my 13-year-old, my 13 year old’s going through it right now as well.

Jim: Yeah. Yeah.

Monica: So I’m, I’m still in it and still gathering great resources.

Jim: Character development for all ages-

Monica: Yes.

Jim: … (laughs), that’s what we need to call that.

Monica: Yes.

Jim: Monica, let’s end here. Uh, another aspect of this great resource, Raising Amazing, uh, was this idea of adversity and suffering.

Monica: Hmm.

Jim: Most of us as parents, I’m guilty, I’ll put my hand up. I don’t wanna see my kids suffer-

Monica: No.

Jim: … especially where I came from. My goal has been to help them to avoid suffering.

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I think it has been a mistake at times-

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … that I’ve overprotected. Um, I’ll speak for myself. I don’t know if Jean would say that too, but, you know, I just, I just feel like, “Wow, I, I went through so much.” But-

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … the irony of ironies is that that adversity and that suffering-

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … does produce good things-

Monica: Yes.

Jim: … like character.

Monica: It does.

Jim: That’s exactly what the scripture says, right?

Monica: Yes.

Jim: And speak to that importance-

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … for parents, moms maybe particularly-

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … but you know, all parents.

Monica: Yes.

Jim: Uh, to allow appropriate suffering-

Monica: Yes.

Jim: … for your children so that they get it.

Monica: Yes. Well, I know there’s exceptions.

Jim: Yeah.

Monica: But I would say in general, most of our kids today have a pretty good life. I mean, if they get three meals, they sleep in a bed at night, they have a home, they’re doing better than most people in history and at least across the world. And so I think it’s important for us to realize our kids don’t have a lot of natural suffering. There’s things they go through that are hard, but because of that, we don’t want them to grow up soft. We don’t want them to grow up weak and, and that they’re gonna wither the first time they face true adversity. So I encourage parents, including myself, to, to create some challenges for kids because they need to learn to work hard. Right? And so for us, that looked like, um, giving them chores when they were young, uh, when they were able to get a job somewhere outside the house. And our boys worked at a restaurant in the dish pit and it was not-

Jim: In the dish pit.

Monica: … fun work.

John: Back to washing dishes somehow.

Monica: Right? Outdoor work.

Jim: (laughs).

Monica: Um, yes, back, it all comes back to washing dishes.

Jim: There’s a theme in your life.

Monica: There is.

Jim: (laughs).

Monica: But I think coming up with ways to help them and then not rescuing them when they face something hard. Yes, they need coaching, they need mentoring, but we don’t have to be the first one to run to the coach or the teacher and try to do the work for them. Maybe encourage them to go do that and learn some skills to, uh, about how to deal with things that they face in life, because that’s gonna pay off later on.

John: That’s Monica Swanson. She’s been our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And Monica has a lot of great parenting insights in her book, Raising Amazing: Bringing Up Kids Who Love God, Like Their Family, and Do the Dishes Without Being Asked. We certainly recommend you get a copy of that book when you call us. Our number is 800-232-6459. That’s 800 the letter A and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Boy, that criteria, I feel like Jean and I have actually hit it. (laughs) Troy is doing the dishes with not being asked.

John: (laughs).

Jim: I love it. (laughs). Uh, John, I’d like to invite our listeners to join our friends of Focus on the Family community this month. We’re looking for a thousand people or families who will commit to supporting the ministry on a monthly basis. That’s what Jean and I do. I know you and Dena do the same, John. Uh, monthly giving really helps balance our budget and enables us to have resources on hand when parents contact us for help. Like dealing with major transitions, perhaps even deciding whether or not to keep that child.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: That’s a big one. And then of course, all the issues that teens are facing today, even teen suicide, we have help in that area as well. So please consider becoming a friend to Focus on the Family with your monthly pledge. And if that’s more than you can afford right now, a one-time gift will also be very helpful.

John: Yeah, we look forward to hearing from you. And when you donate, uh, making that monthly pledge or that one time gift of any amount, we’ll say thank you by sending a copy of Monica’s great book. Again, our number 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or donate and request the resources at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. We hope you have a great weekend with your family and your church family as well. And then, uh, coming up on Monday, three important roles you play with your spouse.

Preview:

Kevin Thompson: And whenever I think about what it means for me to be a husband, what does Jenny need from me? She needs me to be, to be a friend for her. She needs me to be a friend to her, that walk alongside of her all throughout life. She needs me to be a partner that shares the busyness of life with her.

End of Preview

The post Teaching Kids to Love God and Serve Others Well appeared first on Focus on the Family.

John Fuller: We have some great encouragement for you today from one of our most popular guests on this edition of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: You know, John, sometimes we just need a reminder of how valuable we are in God’s eyes. It’s hard to even think that way. And that’s what our friend, J.John, is going to deliver today. This message was given to a crowd of over 2,000 women, uh, but the content is applicable for all of us. Uh, J.John is international speaker, an author. He and his wife, Kelly, live just outside London.

John: Well, here’s J.John recorded at the 2019 Zoe Women’s Conference, hosted by the Life Church in Memphis, Tennessee, on today’s episode of Focus on the Family.

J.John: I’m gonna tell you about four things that God says about each one of us, each one of you. The first thing he says is, “You are lovable.” Now, can you repeat this? I am lovable.

Audience: I am lovable.

J.John: You are indeed. The Bible says this, “This is how God showed His love among us. He sent His one and only son into the world that we might live through him.” Have you heard this? Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never harm me. Has there ever been a greater untruth sung in the playground? That is not a nursery rhyme. That is a nursery crime. And we need to reject what has been spoken over us and hear what God speaks over us. There’s a lovely story when Jesus is asked by a desperate man, “Would he go and visit his sick daughter?” And he said, “Well, of course I’ll come and visit your sick daughter.”

So, Jesus is walking, he’s with his disciples, he’s going through this narrow lane, street, and people are hearing, “It’s Jesus, it’s Jesus.” It’s pretty congested. It’s pretty crowded. And then, all of a sudden, Jesus stops and he says, “Who touched me?” I mean, can you imagine, you know, you’re- you’re walking with a friend into a stadium, thousands of people are pouring in, and then your friend says, “Who touched me?” You’re like, “I wouldn’t worry about it. You know, chill out. There’s always gonna be a bit of an elbow.” I mean, even here tonight, there could’ve been a little bit of an elbow.

Jesus said, “Who touched me?” You know, the disciples are…Lord. I mean, it’s not a … Isn’t it? I mean, it’s not as if you’ve got a wallet and you’re gonna lose it. I mean, chill out, Lord. Jesus said, “Who touched me?” This woman came out of the crowd and she says, “I touched you.” And he said to her, “Why did you touch me?” Now, I- I think Jesus knew the answer, but he just wanted her to articulate it. And she- she had a woman’s problem and no one could help her. And she says, “I heard about you, Jesus, and I thought if I could reach and touch the hem, the hem of your garment. Not even touch your skin, just touch the hem of your garment, something would happen.”

Jesus said, “Did it happen?” Oh, yes. Now, this is the great thing about that story. The crowd was following Jesus, but Jesus stopped the whole crowd for one woman. So, even here tonight, you may feel, “Wow, I … There’s 2,000 women here. Does he know?” He knows. He knows. He knows. And all you do is reach out, he’ll stop for you. Why? Because you are lovable. So, repeat, I am lovable.

Audience: I am lovable.

J.John: Secondly, you are valuable. Now say, I am valuable.

Audience: I am valuable.

J.John: Listen to what Jesus said, “Look at the birds, they don’t plant, or harvest, or store food in barns, but God feeds them. Are you not more valuable to Him than these birds?” Listen to the birds. Jesus said, “Look at the birds. Are you not more valuable than they are?” And Jesus says, “Of course you are. You are far more valuable than those birds are, far more valuable.” I’ve got in my pocket a $50 bill. It’s a brand new one. It’s nice when they’re brand new, isn’t it? I like them, they’re really nice. And it’s crisp and it’s clean and it’s worth $50. Now, I know this was all beautifully cleaned, but of course many of us have walked up here with shoes from the outside.

So, maybe it’s a bit dusty. Yeah, I think I can see a little bit of dust there. Right, let’s put some dust on this $50 note. Is this illegal? Because in England, it’s illegal to step on the Queen. All right, let’s put a bit of dust, bit of dust. All right. Okay. There we are. Right. A moment ago, this was a clean, crisp $50 bill and it was worth $50. I can see that I’ve got dirt all over it, but it hasn’t lost its value. It’s still worth $50. But it, but it’s crisp. It’s a crisp $50 bill. Okay. I’m going to scrunch it up now. Okay. Now, I’ve got a scrunched up $50 bill. A moment ago, it was clean and crisp, it was worth $50.

Then it got dirt on it. It never lost its value. Now it’s all scrunched up and it hasn’t lost its value. Listen, it doesn’t matter how dirty, how scrunched up you think you are, you have never lost your value in God’s eyes. I am lovable.

Audience: I am lovable.

J.John: I am valuable.

Audience: I am valuable.

J.John: Thirdly, you are forgivable. Now say, I am forgivable.

Audience: I am forgivable.

J.John: Yes. The Bible says, “This is love, not that we love God, but that He loved us and sent His son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.” The Psalmist wrote, “God, He forgives our sins. He has removed our sins as far from us as the East is from the West.” There’s a woman who had lots of problems and she went to see a psychotherapist. And the psychotherapist tried to work out, when did this woman’s problems all begin? And he journeyed through her life, eventually to a time when she was quite young and she was at school. And for some reason, her teacher took a great dislike to her. And the teacher said to her, “Come out here and write on the board, ‘I am a failure.'”

And then the teacher said to the rest of the class, “I want you all one-by-one to come out here and write what you think of her.” And the psychotherapist said, “Well, how did you feel when that was happening?” She said, “Well, I- I- I- I couldn’t look at anybody and- and- and I started to cry. And- and all I wanted to do was to die.” And the psychotherapist says, “As a Christian, I know that something else happened that day and I’m so sorry you were not aware of it. But when everybody else had finished writing on that board, there was a man at the back called Jesus. He got up from his desk, he walked to the front, he picked up an eraser. He erased everything that was written on that blackboard. And he wrote, ‘I love you and forgive you.'”

You see, maybe some of that stuff on the board was true. Maybe some of it was true. But whether it was true, whether it wasn’t true, Jesus wants to wipe it clean. Jesus did not come into this world to rub it in, but he came to rub it out. You are lovable. You are valuable. And you are forgivable. Jesus wants to cleanse us from the past. You and I cannot alter the past, but we can bring the past to the altar of God.

John: You’re listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And that’s British Evangelist, J.John. And we’re making this message available, along with three other great presentations from J.John in a complimentary audio bundle. Uh, we just wanted to encourage you, so stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast to access those, or call us if you need some guidance in doing that. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word, FAMILY. 800-232-6459. Let’s return now to more from J.John.

J.John: I’m from London. I was walking around London, there was this gigantic poster of a woman advertising lingerie. But obviously, she was also advertising various other parts of her anatomy. And someone wrote across the poster in large letters, S-I-N, sin. And somebody wrote underneath, “What is sin?” And I could see that loads of people had written definitions all over the poster. So, I went to read them. And I’m reading, I’m reading what everybody has written. And I disagree with everything people have written. So, I get my pen out and I wrote this, “Whoever knows what is right to do but fails to do it, for that person, it is sin.” And then I signed it, “James.”

And the reason I signed it, “James,” is because I didn’t want to get the credit for it, because James in the Bible wrote that. “Whoever knows what is right to do but fails to do it, for that person, it is sin.” Look, even by our own standards, we fail, let alone God’s standards. Yeah. And- and the great news is, the great news is, is that this Jesus has done something for each one of us. There was a famous artist and this famous artist went back to the very small rural community where he was born and brought up. And he’s walking around some of the stores, there’s an antique shop. He looks in the window, he cannot believe what he sees.

In the window, he sees one of his masterpieces. It was a painting that he’d painted years before he was famous, but it was his. The frame was broken, the picture was scratched and dirty. But he couldn’t go into the store and say, “That’s my painting, give it back to me.” If he wanted it back, he had to buy it back before he could clean it, restore it, reframe it. That is what Jesus did for us. So, look, it doesn’t matter how dirty, how creased. It doesn’t matter where you’ve been. You can’t alter the past. Bring the entire past to the altar of Jesus and he is gonna clean it, he’s gonna restore it, and he will reframe you. That is what he’s gonna do. One, I am lovable.

Audience: I am lovable.

J.John: Two, I am valuable.

Audience: I am valuable.

J.John: Three, I am forgivable.

Audience: I am forgivable.

J.John: And four, you are capable. Now say, I am capable.

Audience: I am capable.

J.John: You are absolutely capable. There was an ice factory that caught fire and this ice factory that produces ice caught fire. And they had to call the fire people to come and put the fire out, even though the- the factory had all the H2O it needed to put the fire out. But the problem was, all its assets were frozen. Now, when I was g-, I was growing up in London, I was an agnostic. I didn’t believe in God. I wasn’t interested in God. I didn’t know anything really. But when I was a student, I met a Christian. And then one day, he showed me in the last book of the Bible, in the book of Revelation, chapter three verse 20, there’s this beautiful picture of Jesus standing outside of a door of a house knocking.

And it says this, “If you hear the knock, open the door and let him in.” My friend read this to me and he said to me, “Have you heard Jesus knocking?” I said, “I think so.” He said, “Have you opened the door?” I said, “Where’s the door?” He said, “Don’t worry about where the door is, ask Jesus to break the door down.” On the 9th of February, 1975, I- I remember kneeling down, first time I ever knelt, was aware of kneeling, first time I ever prayed and I said, “Jesus, if you are knocking on my door, could you break that door down and come into my life?”

And as I said that, the light came on. The light came on. My heart, something happened. I could feel it in my heart, something happened. Something shifted. I didn’t have the vocabulary to explain what had happened, but I knew that the light had come on. I knew that- that something happened in my heart. My mother said to me, “You’re brainwashed.” I said, “Mother, my brain has been washed. If you only knew what was in my brain, you’d be pleased it got washed.” And Jesus came into my life and Jesus came into my house. That is such a beautiful, helpful analogy for us.

We- we invite Jesus to come in, not to be our landlord but to be our Lord. Not just to be resident, but to be president. Yeah? It’s very easy to say, “Oh, come in. Come in.” And then you open this cupboard, “Get in there.” Did that resonate? Did that resonate? I want you in my life, w- bu- but y- restricted. I want you in my life, but only, you can hang out there. No. The Bible says, “When he comes into our lives, he comes into our lives by his Holy Spirit.” And the Bible says, “Do not grieve the Holy Spirit, do not quench the Holy Spirit, do not resist the Holy Spirit.” Three do nots. Don’t resist him. Don’t quench him. Don’t grieve him.

So, what we need to do is to say, “Come on down to the basement of our lives. Clear out all the cobwebs. Come into the attic of our lives. Clear out all the, all the bats. Come into the sitting room of our lives. Come into the- the dining room of our lives. Come into the kitchen of our lives. Come into the bedroom of our lives. Come into this room of our life. Come into that … It- it’s all yours. Jesus, I want you to be resident and president. Reign and rule in my life. Reign and rule in my heart. Reign and rule in my mind.” Do you know, as we do that, his spirit living in us … This is the incredible thing. His spirit living in us is the same Holy Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead.

Wow, wait a minute. Wait a minute. The same? Yep. The same in here? The sa- … Yes, the same Holy Spirit that raised Jesus Christ from- from the dead lives in us. Now, if the Holy Spirit lives in us, oh my word, and it can raise Jesus from the dead, uh, wow. There’s a lot in here. Yeah? Therefore, I am capable. Therefore, you are capable. Therefore, everything is possible. Everything. If you’ve got God’s Holy Spirit, everything is possible. Miracles are possible. Everything is possible, because His spirit is living in us.

Our next door neighbors, they’re not Christians yet, but they call my wife and I, the neighbors from heaven. Which is really nice, isn’t it? Well, we wouldn’t want to be called the neighbors from the other side, would we? The lady next door, she had a stroke. And as a consequence of the stroke, she fell into a coma. And she got transferred from our local hospital to a r- a big hospital in Oxford. And her daughter came around and spoke to my wife and she said to her, “We’ve just met with a consultant and they’ve told us that mom is brain dead and she’s on a life support machine for … And we’ve decided that after five days, we’re gonna switch the machine off.”

So, my wife said, “Well, look, can we visit your mother before you switch the machine off and she dies?” And the daughter said, “Oh, please. If- if you could visit my mother, uh, we’d be so grateful because my mother was so, was … Just loved you guys.” So, great, we’re gonna go. The only day I could go was the fifth day. So, fifth day, we have to drive to another city. And I’m a little bit irritated, because I’m like, “Ah, she was in local hospital. Now we got to drive an hour.” You know? And then, you don’t know this hospital and you don’t know where to park the car. And I was a bit irritable.

Anyway, we eventually get there and she’s in intensive care. We walk in and she’s got tubes all over her. So, I start speaking to her, “Hi, Joyce.” I said, “It’s the neighbors from heaven.” I said, “We’ve just come to say a prayer with you.” And she had tubes … I took her by the hand. I held Kelly’s hand. Kelly held her other hand. And I start speaking to her. I said, “Now, what we’re gonna do now, Joyce, we’re gonna pray the Lord’s Prayer. Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come … ” And when we said, “Your kingdom come,” she woke up.

We went back. I said to her husband, “She woke up.” He goes, “No, she didn’t.” I say, “She did.” He said, “No, she didn’t.” I say, “She did.” S- he goes, “She’s brain dead. She didn’t wake up.” I said, “She did.” Anyway, it didn’t matter, she came home the following week. She’s still alive. Look, you see, when you’ve let Jesus into your heart here, it’s like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you are carrying resurrection fire. Right? Now look, we live in a world of miracle and mystery. Okay? Uh, y- look, that’s the world in which we live in. W- don’t try and figure it all out. God is God. He’s not applying for the job.

So, uh, you just got to trust Him. But, in the meantime, just be channels of that grace, of that love, of that power to other people. We carry the presence of Jesus. Listen, you are lovable. You are valuable. You are forgivable. And you are capable. And what … You know, if you’re gonna get the most out of the next 24 hours, it begins with saying, Jesus, I open the door. L- come in. Come in and cleanse me. Set me free from the past. Come in and heal me.

For those of us that have already got Jesus in our, in our h- lives and homes, it- it might be that we’ve got to say, “Jesus, I know you’re already in, but I’ve restricted you. I’ve restricted you. But I- I don’t want to restrict you anymore. I want you to reign and rule in my life. I want you to be resident and president. I want you to go into every room of my life and be who you want to be and I want to be a channel of whatever you want me to be.” That’s where it begins with. It begins with that.

John: And that’s where we’ll end this powerful message from British Evangelist, J.John, on today’s Focus on the Family.

Jim: Yeah, J.John invited the audience to stand up at this point and he gave everyone an opportunity to ask Jesus Christ into their hearts for the first time, or to reconnect with the Lord after a period of separation. So, why don’t we do that today, right now? Pray with me. Thank you, Jesus, for knocking on my door. I open the door of my life right now. I know I have done many things wrong and I ask you to forgive me. Cleanse my life, set me free from the past. I invite you now into my life. Come in by your Holy Spirit, fill me with your presence, your peace and your power. Thank you, Jesus, that I am lovable, valuable, forgivable and capable. Thank you, Lord, for hearing and answering my prayer. Amen.

And if you, uh, prayed that prayer with me, well done. Welcome to the family of God. Uh, please get in touch with us so that we can congratulate you and give you some follow-up materials, like our Coming Home booklet which will explain what it means to be a follower of Christ and give you some next steps to take. And we really want to bless you with more insight and encouragement, so we’ve put together a special bundle featuring four powerful messages from J.John, including the one you heard today with some extra content. Visit us online for that complimentary access.

John: You know, this really is quite a collection from J.John and it includes the titles, Reasons to Believe in Jesus, Gaining a New Perspective on Life, and Unwrapping the Real Meaning of Christmas. And you can just visit our website to get started. That’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Or call us if you need some help. Our number is 800-232-6459. 800, the letter A, and the word, FAMILY. Next time, you’ll hear how to help your child grow to have a servant’s heart.

Monica Swanson: We need to pray for our kids and we need to just make sure that they understand that this isn’t about religion, but about a relationship with God through Jesus. And I think that once they catch that, then it’s really out of our hands and it’s more between them and God.

The post Who God Says You Are appeared first on Focus on the Family.

Sabrina McDonald: Our wedding, of course, we were really looking forward to it and excited about saying goodbye to our single days and, you know, moving forward and happy, and, um, I remember walking in the door. The door’s open to the sanctuary, and of course, I’m expecting … you know, I did this 10 years earlier with someone else. It was a, you know, beautiful day, wonderful celebration.

John: Joyful, yeah.

Sabrina: Yeah, joyful, people smiling, and I walk in the door, and immediately, I’m greeted with sniffles and sadness and, you know, you can hear people ruffling their, their tissue and crying and, you know, sniffing, and looking over at different places, you see shoulders shaking. I mean, you’re not just talking about just a polite cry, you know (laughs). You’re talking about really, really weeping.

John: Sabrina McDonald joined us last time to describe her own journey through remarriage and stepfamily and she’s back with us again today. Your host is Focus president and author Jim Daly, and I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: John, we had such a tender and thoughtful conversation last time with Sabrina exploring how blended families often don’t blend very well, and we do touch on this subject from time to time, because there are a lot of people, for all kinds of reasons, that end up in a blended family. It could be the death of a spouse, the death of both spouses, divorce, whatever it might be. And, you know, at Focus, we feel we need to help equip families where they’re at, so as they move forward, they could do the best job they can do in the Lord, uh, to be the family they want to be. And we’re going to come back to this conversation today.

If you missed it, uh, last time, uh, get the download. You can go to the website, or even better, get our, uh, smartphone app and you can have the whole library of Focus programs there for you. Um, Sabrina shared how remarried couples have to navigate life and reconnect, and there was so many brilliant things said yesterday, John, that I, again, I would just encourage you to get ahold of that. And how can we do that, John? How do people do that?

John: Well, the best way is to stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And we mentioned last time that Sabrina has captured her story and, uh, her insights, her perspectives, for remarried couples and their families in a terrific book. It’s called A Home Built from Love and Loss: Coming Together as a Blended Family, and we’ve got details on the website, or call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY.

Jim: Sabrina, welcome back.

Sabrina: Oh, thank you for having me.

Jim: It’s so good, and I so appreciate your vulnerability in all this last time. I mean, both of us were getting choked up with, uh, the back and forth about blended families. You were the parent in this blended family, I was the child, so, uh, kind of different perspectives, but, you know, pain and joy in both ways, um. You offer so much practical help for these couples that are in a remarriage. Uh, you urge them to express their feelings and even talk about their previous marriage, uh, with each other. Why, why is that important? ‘Cause I could, I could see that as being also dangerous.

Sabrina: Yeah. Um, there’s definitely some danger in it, and I think we all understand the danger. You know, there’s jealousy, there’s pain, uh, there’s fear that comes along with it.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sabrina: But I don’t think that most people understand that there’s benefit, and the benefit comes when you understand that your previous spouse made you a part of who you are. They are intricately involved in your personality and who you’ve become, and you can’t really understand your new spouse until you understand their previous spouse, because they’re part of them.

Jim: Huh.

Sabrina: So when you talk about that person, you begin to understand why maybe they interpret things the way that they do, um, the previous ways of communication, love languages, um, all of these kinds of things.

Jim: Well, that’s true, all different. Think of that, you’re married to a certain temperament the first marriage-

Sabrina: Exactly.

Jim: … and you understand their love language perhaps, just to use that code.

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And then you marry someone else who’s different and, uh, you have to relearn the way they want to be loved, or need to be loved.

Sabrina: Exactly. And, and the way that their previous spouse loved them is going to be different than the way you naturally love. And so, for example, my first husband’s love language was physical touch, and he loved his back to be scratched and to be rubbed on, and so when I married Robbie, I thought, “Well, obviously, this is the way I’ve learned to love my spouse.” So I would scratch his back and rub on him, and he would just recoil from that and pull away from me, which really hurt my feelings and I couldn’t figure out why is he, you know, rejecting the love that I’m giving to him? And it turned out that that wasn’t his love language. Of course, he had his own love languages. But even that changed as we were married because I gave him more affection, um, in, you know, different ways, holding his hand, rubbing his back.

Jim: Yeah, more of that physical touch.

Sabrina: Yeah, more of those physical touch aspects, and he really craved that from his first wife, but when it came to me, I was overloading him with it.

Jim: Interesting.

Sabrina: So now his love language has changed to quality time or words of affirmation, so that, in and of itself, changed.

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: But by knowing her as his previous spouse and un- understanding how they interacted with one another, I’m more able to understand who he is.

Jim: Even that creates a little bit of stress, obviously, ’cause you’re in a groove and then you’re disrupted in that groove, right-

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jim: … as, as to how you have learned to express love, um, and then you got to learn a new way.

Sabrina: Oh, yeah.

Jim: I mean, that’s part of it, but, you know, also if you see that as more playful and an opportunity-

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … it, it’s so much better than frustration and angst, right?

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jim: How come you don’t respond? And I, I mean, that can go in a negative direction when it doesn’t need to.

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, it’s just what it is. Let me, let me move to the children. Um, (laughs) you know, again, I mentioned earlier, uh, you lost your spouse, remarried Robbie, who had lost a spou- … I was child out of divorce.

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You know, my mom and dad divorced. But kids can be kind of an area of stress and, man, did I feel that with Hank, my stepdad. He just, you know, almost every day, he was able to communicate to me, “I really wish you weren’t around,” to which the good thing is I didn’t care.

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jim: It didn’t really affect me emotionally, (laughing) ’cause I was like, “Whatever.”

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I was already getting that teen attitude at nine years old.

Sabrina: The feeling’s mutual, yeah (laughs).

Jim: Yeah. You know, it didn’t dent me emotionally.

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: It didn’t take away my sense of worth or value, and I know, some people, that does happen. I would just pray for those children to have a little more resiliency and not let people dictate who you are and your identity in Christ, right?

Sabrina: Yes, exactly.

Jim: But, um, in that respect, though, children can become a stressor in the relationship, and how do you manage and navigate that to where, you know, you lay your head down on the pillow at night and, you know, all of a sudden, it’s, you know, Johnny did this and Mary did that and who’s going to talk to them and how do we straighten this mess out?

Sabrina: Yeah. Well, it’s very difficult to navigate. I mean, I think that’s, you know, (laughs) part of the, the problem with blended families. In traditional families, you have a man and woman that get married and they have a honeymoon period, and even if they get pregnant on their honeymoon night, they’ve got nine months to work it out before they have kids. And, when you get married in a blended family, you don’t have that.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sabrina: Immediately, you have a family full of interactive relationships and it’s just, uh, it’s like a spiderweb. If you start drawing lines … you know, in a traditional family, you have a very clear map. You know, you draw a line to mom and dad, kids come out of that. And then … but when you have a blended family, you have grandparents, you have children, you have … some of those children are in their teenage years. Um, some of those kids are, are struggling with the grief from the previous tragic situation, whatever it may be, and you just have all these personalities. You know, you, you look at these TV show like a Survivor or something where they put all these people on an island and then they (laughing), you try to get them all to survive, you know, together, and the chaos that happens, and this person hates this person, and this person’s stabbing this person in the back, but we take them in a blended family and we’re essentially doing the same thing. We’re taking a whole group of strangers and putting them in a home and saying, “Okay, live now and all get along and everybody like each other,” and it’s just not possible to do that.

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: And how do you navigate that? Well, you, you have a lot of grace and, you know, I wrote this book so people will understand that there is grief that is happening. It’s not just, “I don’t like you.” There’s also, “I don’t like you because you’re trying to be my dad,” “I don’t like you because you think you’re my mom, and you’re not my mom,” and there’s that conflict that, um, loyalty that goes on and you’re feeling pulled between …So let’s say you do like your stepmom and your mom is still alive, or maybe your mom is deceased, but you still feel love toward that person and now you’re, you’re sad. You feel like you’re hurting the one that you love by wanting to like this person, so that creates a problem and … or let’s say you really don’t like this person, your personalities just don’t get along, but yet you had no choice in the matter.

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: Your parent loves them and wants to be married to them. They didn’t marry you, they married your parent, you know. So how do you deal with that? Well, that, that is the question. It’s a dance. I mean-

Jim: Well, and you had that situation with Benjamin, I think-

Sabrina: Oh, yes.

Jim: … your son, uh, when he was young and, and you had to kind of talk with him about who mommy loves and how mommy loves. How did that … I read that. I, I, I want to hear your answer, then I’m going to push back on you a little bit, (laughing) so go ahead.

Sabrina: Well, when Ben … he was five, we had just gotten married, and he was really unhappy with Robbie. You know, Robbie’s coming in. He’s taking over.

Jim: And he’s how old?

Sabrina: Benjamin was five and just in kindergarten, so his whole-

Jim: But running the show and now he’s not (laughs).

Sabrina: … his whole life is changing. Yeah, so he’s going into school and he’s also … has a new man in his life who’s taken over his mom. And, uh, so here comes this man telling him what to do, and he was very angry at me, you know, and finally, he looked at me, he stomped his little feet, he said, “Do you love him more than you love me?” Of course, he’s-

Jim: Here’s a moment a truth right here.

Sabrina: Yeah. He’s five, you know.

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: And I’m looking at his big brown eyes with just pain behind his, his eyes, and I looked at him and I thought, “How can I explain to him how this situation is happening?” And, finally, I said, “Are you going to be here when I’m old?” and he goes, “What?” I said, “You’re going to grow up, right?” “Yeah. Yeah, I’m going to grow up.” And I said, “You’re going to get married one day, right?” “Yeah, I’m going to get married one day.” And I said, “Then you’re going to move off and you’re not going to be here anymore, but Robbie will be here. He’ll be here when I’m old. He’ll be here taking care of me. When you’re off with your family, he’s going to be here with me. So I do love him, I do love him.” And, um, he understood that. It was like he, he kind of … it put it into focus for him a little bit.

Jim: No, that’s good. The mother knows her son.

Sabrina: Yeah (laughs).

Jim: For me, it was, you know, what I probably would have wanted to hear is, “Of course, I love you-”

Sabrina: Oh, yeah. Well-

Jim: “… but, you know-”

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jim: “… my love for Robbie is different.”

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: “… and we’re going to be together forever and you’re …”

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I like that, but there was something when, when I first read that, I was like, “Oh, but tell me you love me (laughing).”

Sabrina: Well, we have, we’ve had that conversation many, many times, you know-

Jim: I’m sure you did.

Sabrina: … in, in telling him that I love him and that I know this is hard for him and it’s a new life and-

Jim: Uh, let’s speak to the issue of respect in the stepfamily. I mean, we’ve, last time and this time, we talked about that, and my stepdad, uh, of course, had none of that from the kids. And I, I don’t know, there’s probably blame on both sides of that equation. The stepchildren don’t treat the stepparent with respect-

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and then the stepparent is attempting to create that bond-

Sabrina: Right.

Jim: … and then the kids are sniffing that out, going, “Ah, that’s all fake.”

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You know, you can tell I’m an experienced step- stepchild.

Sabrina: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jim: But that’s, that’s the dance, and I don’t know, in that equation or that formula, in my case, what Hank could’ve done to, to connect with us. There’s probably many things I would’ve responded to. But speak to that idea generally about how a family, a blended family, a stepfamily, can develop respect within the group-

Sabrina: Right.

Jim: … within the tribe.

Sabrina: Yeah. Well, you know, as a stepparent, I think, so often wants to be loved. Um, they want to come into a family and step into a role that is loved, and that is just impossible. You can do that … your biological children, when they’re born, they, you know, they grow up and they love you, because they’re your biological children.

Jim: It is what it is (laughs).

Sabrina: That’s exactly right. They don’t really choose it. They don’t … it just happens. Um, but with stepchildren, they can’t love you. And that was another thing I had to learn was that, also, a stepparent can’t love a child. It’s not there automatically. It’s something that grows. So I expected Robbie to walk right in and love my children.

Jim: Right.

Sabrina: Uh, they were so young. He didn’t love my children because they weren’t his children. He had to grow in love with my children.

Jim: But it’s really critical for that stepparent to realize that they have to ease into that-

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … that loving relationship-

Sabrina: That’s right.

Jim: … because it’s not a license to be abusive.

Sabrina: That’s exactly right.

Jim: And I, I mean even subtly-

Sabrina: That’s exactly right.

Jim: … I mean, just whatever it might be-

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jim: … a little ignoring of the child or-

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … “Get your act together. You’re always spastic,” or whatever (laughing) you might say, right?

Sabrina: Right.

Jim: ‘Cause you’re not used to that child’s-

Sabrina: Yes.

Jim: … um, you know, personality.

Sabrina: And that’s what we were talking yesterday about, um, you know, when I wanted Robbie to come in and be this disciplinarian in the home. The kids did not respond well to that.

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: And so what he really needed to do was focus on that relationship of being a friend, of being someone that they enjoy being around, really letting that be the kind of focus in the home for the stepparent than it is, you know, “Here’s the rules. Here’s the order. You know, respect me.” Um, that, you know, hard line, um, should not be what they really focus on. They really need to focus on that loving, tender getting to know each other.

Jim: Right.

Sabrina: I mean, you’re total strangers at that point.

Jim: Thi- this can feel thankless in the role of stepparent-

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … but you use, uh, Galatians 1:10-

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … as a Scriptural reminder. How does that connect? What is that Scripture?

Sabrina: Yeah, Galatians 1:10. It says, “For am I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.” So, you know, that’s what it goes back to is, is pleasing God and not pleasing man. You can’t worry about what your stepkids think about you. You can’t worry about what, what your spouse thinks about you. Um, you can’t act in a way that you think is going to get you something in return, even if that acting is love, but you have to do things that you know that God has called you to do and act in a way that you know that the Lord will be pleased instead of mending the family.

Jim: But, but it’s critical, especially in Christ, as Christians, that love is coming from that stepparent to that child.

Sabrina: Oh, yes. I mean, that, that’s the key. That’s the key.

Jim: I mean, you are the adult in the relationship (laughs)-

Sabrina: Yes, absolutely.

Jim: … even if children are spinning out emotionally ’cause they’ve had a lot of loss-

Sabrina: Yes.

Jim: … you got to remember, be the mature one-

Sabrina: Yes.

Jim: … take the blows, and then love.

Sabrina: Yes, absolutely.

Jim: And then you’re going to earn that relationship, I think.

Sabrina: Yeah. Well, and not always, to be honest. I mean, there are, there are people who, no matter how loving you are, no matter how kind you are, no matter how good you are to them, um, they are never going to want to be all in in the relationship and that’s … whatever the reason. Sometimes it’s because they are afraid that their other parent will get hurt or there’s a loyalty issue there or maybe they just don’t like you (laughing). Maybe they just don’t like your personality.

Jim: That’s a hard truth.

Sabrina: It, it’s … but it’s reality, you know. I mean, you step into a, a situation where, especially when the kids are a little older and they’ve got their own personalities, their own dreams-

Jim: Oh, yeah.

Sabrina: … their own hopes, and they just, they’re not … it doesn’t … you can be the most loving person on the planet, you can do everything they want, treat them every way, any way they want, they’re going to find something that they don’t like about you and you just have to accept it for the way that it is.

John: Mm-hmm. Yeah, the realities of stepfamilies, that’s what we’re talking today about, uh, on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Our guest is Sabrina McDonald and, uh, she’s written a terrific book, A Home Built from Love and Loss. And you can find out more about that book and, uh, resources for you at our website, and that’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Sabrina, I’m going to put you on the spot. You wrote it in the book, so (laughs) I’m not, I’m not being mean (laughing), but your greatest, uh, failure as a stepmom when you were reflect back on Robbie’s children-

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … who were older-

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … when you got married to Robbie. What were, uh, you know, an example of where you thought, “Ah, if I could just redo that, I would’ve done it differently?”

Sabrina: Yeah. Uh, well, uh, there are many of those examples (laughing)-

Jim: Well, I appreciate that.

Sabrina: … but, uh, (laughs) but the one that I wrote about in the book was, um, when we first got married, um, Robbie and his son Seth, who was just a teenager at the time, he, they would go out every Saturday and go golfing.

Jim: Yay! Oh, sorry.

Sabrina: Yeah (laughing). That’s what they thought, “Yay!” And I’m at home and, of course, I had my own, you know, dreams about how this situation would turn out, and I’m thinking, “These guys are just trying to get away from me and my kids, you know, they’re just trying to leave me here at home, and they’re going to go out and have a great time and, you know, party all day and hit balls and, you know, (laughing) do their, whatever, man stuff, and they’re just leaving me-”

Jim: Yes, chest pump.

Sabrina: Yeah, exactly (laughing).

Jim: Wham! Good shot! Way to go! That was great!

Sabrina: Yes. And I’m going to be here doing all the work, you know, with the kids. And, um, so I really, you know, talked about how displeased I was and I didn’t like it and it’s not fair and on and on.

Jim: It must’ve been fun when Robbie got home (laughs).

Sabrina: Yeah, yeah. And, uh, so he, he stopped doing that and, um, big, big, big regret. I mean, looking back, you know, that was their time together and I took it from them, so I wish I hadn’t done that.

Jim: Well, trust me, you could be the bio mom and have the same feelings (laughs). I think Jean and I, I think we had that discussion, “Really? You’re going to go play golf on Saturday (laughing)? Shouldn’t you be home with your kids?”-

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … which, yeah, they weren’t old enough for me yet to take them golfing. I chose to try to go golf without anybody-

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jim: … so I know that feeling and that, you know, for me, that was a little insensitive, And Jean was great, calling me out. So there’s positiveness on both sides.

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Now that we have you in tears on your failures, (laughing) let’s end on the high note. Uh, you know, when you talk about those things, when you reflect back on them, what was something you did well?

Sabrina: Um, I think when, uh, when we first got married, um, Seth knew that I didn’t want to try to be his mom. I knew that he had a mom. I knew I wasn’t it and-

Jim: And how old is he at this point?

Sabrina: He was 14 when we got married.

Jim: Yeah. Ooh, that is a tough age.

Sabrina: It was really hard. It was hard to know is this normal teenage-hood? You know, I didn’t have teenagers, never had had teenagers, um, so a lot of times, I didn’t know if his, um, reactions were just hormones or was it grief from the loss of his mother, but we ta-

Jim: Yes, yes, and yes probably.

Sabrina: Yeah, exactly. But-

John: Yeah.

Sabrina: … but we talked about her a lot.

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: And we talked about, um, what he misses about her and, you know, what, what were his favorite memories, and I wanted him to know that I wasn’t trying to take over, you know.

Jim: Yeah. That’s a good conversation.

Sabrina: Yeah. We were, we were friends and that’s what I wanted to be. Um, yes, I expected him to have respect for me and to, you know, to go by the rules and things like that. But one day I asked him, I said, “Why did you, why did you say it was okay for your dad to marry me?” ’cause he, Robbie would run all the girlfriends by him, you know to get his approval, “What do you think about her? What do you think about her?” And, a lot of times, he’d say, “No, definitely not. Don’t marry that one (laughing),” but, when he came to me, he said, “Okay.”

Jim: Huh.

Sabrina: And I knew that was hard for him because he was the youngest and he was going to have two younger siblings and so I wondered. I said, “Why did you choose me?” and he said, “Because you didn’t try to be my mom.”

Jim: Wow.

Sabrina: Yeah. So that meant a lot to him-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sabrina: … that, that I came at it from that approach.

Jim: And that’s good advice. I mean, trying to be somebody you’re not or, you know, be her or be-

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jim: … him, if you’re the guy, that, that comes across to children as false.

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And, man, they are, in this area with stepfamilies, they are wicked smart, children.

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jim: They sniff it out. They know what your intentions are. I mean, even that he could say, “No. No. Yes (laughing).” I mean, there’s something to that. They can tell.

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jim: Um, and, you know, so I appreciate that.

Sabrina: Well, and I’ve talked to a lot of stepmoms who, who, whose hearts have been broken-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sabrina: … that their kids reject them, that the stepchild rejects them, and they’re saying, you know, “I do everything for them. I’m, I make their lunches. I take them to school. I give them gifts on their bir- …” you know, just the whole, whole thing, because they’re trying to be the mom. And I’ll tell them, I’ll say, “You can’t be their mom. They have a mom. Even if the mom’s deceased-”

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: “… they have a mom-”

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: “… and you’re not it.” So you have to just understand that that is your place, that you are someone different than the mom. That doesn’t mean they can’t love you. That doesn’t mean they can’t have a bond with you, a relationship with you. It’s just that you’re different. You know, you’re like an aunt or a teacher or someone they admire or love, but you’re not their mom.

Jim: Right at the end here, uh, you and Robbie built a new house-

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … which also has trauma for the kids-

Sabrina: Mm-hmm. That’s right (laughs).

Jim: … either direction, right, and you built this house and you named it Havilah.

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Why, what is that Hebrew word and what’s the significance of it?

Sabrina: Well, it’s interesting where you were telling the story about, um, you know, your stepdad coming in and getting rid of all your furniture-

Jim: Right (laughs).

Sabrina: … and when we first got married, we moved into my house, uh, because my house was bigger.

Jim: I know the vocabulary.

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jim: It sounds silly, but it is what you think.

Sabrina: Yeah. It’s exactly right.

Jim: Hey, that’s not your furniture to sell.

Sabrina: Exactly.

Jim: Hey, that’s not your house to run around in.

Sabrina: Exactly. So when we moved in there, all of their things went into storage and they felt like they were living at my house, you know, because I already had furniture, already … of course, we’re dealing with the death of a spouse, so it’s not even like a divorce situation where half his stuff goes to the, you know, the other home.

Jim: Right.

Sabrina: Um, and that’s another problem when you’re dealing with death is that there’s no home for them to go to, you know-

Jim: Right.

Sabrina: … that, that he can’t go back home. There’s no other family-

Jim: Right.

Sabrina: … where they can go to. Um, so he’s stuck there at our hou-, my house, with my things, and we said, “We need a home that we can have as a home. Get ou- our furniture, you know.”

Jim: It’s a new chapter.

Sabrina: Exactly. Bring in, bring in the things that are familiar, you know, to Seth and to Robbie and the dishes they remember (laughs) and the, you know, the decorations for the holidays and all the things that you take for granted when you live in a home. So we decided to build a house, and we did name it Havilah, and Havilah is a land in Eden. It’s one of the areas where they, they divide off like four, I say they, in Genesis, Genesis divides off about four areas in Eden, and Havilah is one of those areas, and it’s filled with all these treasures, like gold and, and, um, precious gems and things of that nature. But the Bible says that Havilah, that word Havilah in Hebrew actually means writhing in pain and it means to bring forth, so it gives this image of like childbirth. So it’s something beautiful that happens, but it happens through pain.

Jim: Right.

Sabrina: And, um, we thought that was, uh, a perfect name for our home because there … it’s a beautiful place, it’s a wonderful place, and it was a place where, where all of our things came together as one, so there’s all these treasures there, but it only took place, and it could’ve only taken place, through this terrible, horrible tragedy that both our families had gone through.

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: And, um, so that’s why we ended up naming it Havilah, but there are, there are great treasures to be had there as well.

Jim: That’s so good. I’m just like leaning into what you’re saying, ’cause it’s so good, um, you know, born out of pain or built out of pain. I’ll tell you, even our lives are like that-

Sabrina: Yes.

Jim: … you know. Forget others, but just our own lives going through valleys, uh, you know, built out of pain typically.

Sabrina: Yes.

Jim: There’s something about this life that sorrow … the Lord uses sorrow for good purposes to kind of build into us faithfulness, trust-

Sabrina: Oh, yeah.

Jim: … resiliency. And, hopefully, as a blended family, that’s what you can aim for, that’s the goal, that it can be as good as what was, maybe better.

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jim: And, uh, you know, I think the Lord is honored with that, so.

Sabrina: Yes. I hope he is (laughs).

Jim: S- Sabrina, yeah, you’re living it, yeah, you and Robbie and-

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jim: … thank you so much for being with us, and thank you for this, uh, great resource, A Home Built from Love and Loss: Coming Together as a Blended Family. Thank you for letting us be a publisher-

Sabrina: Oh, thank you.

Jim: … of that great work. And, uh, folks, I think you can hear the heart of this and, uh, there are many people, uh, it might be you, but there are many people around that are in a blended family for all kinds of reasons, uh, rather than the judgmental attitude, why don’t we get a copy (laughs) of the book for that family? If you, uh, if you have somebody in your own extended family that would need or somebody you know at church, pick it up and give it to them, uh, just a great resource for that family to do the best job they can do. If you can make a donation of any amount, we’ll send it as our way of saying thank you, and like I mentioned last time, if you can’t afford it, we want to get this into your hands, so give us a call and ask for it and we’ll trust others will cover the cost of that.

John: Mm-hmm. Yeah, donate and get a copy of this terrific book, A Home Built from Love and Loss. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, and we’ve got all the details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And, if our conversation today, or last time, has raised some concerns for you about the health of your marriage or family, let me encourage you to connect with one of our caring Christian counselors. Uh, they can pray with you and offer Godly direction for getting the help you need. Ask to speak to a counselor when you contact us.

Jim: Sabrina, thanks for being with us.

Sabrina: Thank you. It’s an (laughs) honor to be here-

Jim: Oh, so sweet.

Sabrina: … such an honor.

John: And coming up tomorrow, an inspirational message from British evangelist J.John about your value as a child of God.

Rev. Canon J.John: Have you heard this: “sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never harm me.” Has there ever been a greater untruth sung in the playground? That is not a nursery rhyme that is a nursery crime. And we need to reject what has been spoken over us and hear what God speaks over us.

The post When Lives Collide: Navigating Remarriage and Stepfamily (Part 2 of 2) appeared first on Focus on the Family.

Sabrina McDonald: Because my son was old enough to know this is a stranger. Who is this man? He hadn’t spent that much time with him. I mean we were, we were only dating six months before we were engaged and got married. So, um, he had no… Why does this guy get to come in here? You know, all the other men that come in our house, my brothers, my dad, they were all subject to me, you know, as the authority in the home and now this man comes in here and he’s in my chair? He’s watching my TV? He’s deciding what we have for dinner?

End of Preview

John Fuller: Hm. That’s Sabrina McDonald describing some of the unique challenges facing remarried couples and stepfamilies, and, uh, she’ll offer insights about how these families can rediscover hope and find success in God’s eyes. Uh, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Uh, we’re gonna be covering that topic today. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: You know, John, from time to time we come back to the subject of blended families or stepfamilies because they need our support and encouragement. You know, so often, and I do this too, you don’t know the circumstances of what happened. Uh, was it a divorce or a death in the family that did this? Uh, for all kinds of reasons people remarry and, you know, for us as Christians, I don’t think it’s about what was but what the Lord intends for you now and how do you keep moving and do so in a way that reflects, uh, His spirit, His will for you? And that’s why we wanna come back to this. Sometimes people will let us know they don’t appreciate us talking about blended families. Uh, I would just encourage you to open your heart a little bit and make sure we’re on the same page talking about God’s spirit for those families, for those kids, to be in a loving, uh, family that is so stabilizing for those children. And remember, these families are typically born out of loss, uh, as I said.

John: Yeah.

Jim: It’s the loss of a husband or wife, a mom, a dad, and these families have to pick up the pieces and when mom or dad remarries, how do we do this well and do it in such a way that honors the Lord?

John: Yeah, and in fact, Jim, there are so many, uh, stepfamilies in the Bible. You’ve got Abraham and Sarah and Hagar and, uh, Joseph and his half-brothers. Uh, there was tension. There were (laughs) difficulties in those relationships.

Jim: Yeah.

John: And Jesus himself grew up with a stepfather and, uh, of sorts. They had to figure out how to do a life together and, uh, boy, there were just lots of things going on.

Jim: Well, that’s it. And so I believe today as we cover this topic, today and next time, uh, this will be really helpful for families that are in that spot and also for the families around them, their friends, to better understand how to care and nurture those relationships.

John: Yeah, if we look around we know a lot of stepfamilies and we have a wonderful guest today who’s gonna help us kinda better understand their world. Uh, Sabrina McDonald is an author and speaker who addresses topics of marriage and parenting and stepfamilies and faith, and she became a single mom when her husband, David, was killed in a car accident. Uh, eventually she remarried Robbie, uh, whose wife, Carrie had died from cancer. Now between them, Robbie and Sabrina have four children ranging in age from 13 to 33, and Sabrina has written a book published by Focus on the Family, uh, and that’s the basis for our conversation today. It’s called A Home Built from Love and Loss, and you can find out more at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Sabrina, welcome to Focus.

Sabrina: Thank you. It’s good to be here.

Jim: So, so good to have you. Let’s start with the love story of you and Robbie. Uh, it didn’t really, uh, click the first time you saw each other. You and Jean share that sentiment. (laughs)

Sabrina: (laughs) Yeah.

John: Yeah. (laughs)

Jim: I was in the same boat, so it was like, “Oh, whatever.” (laughs)

Sabrina: (laughs)

Jim: And I was struck and, uh, so talk about you and Robbie and how you met and what it was like.

Sabrina: Yeah. Well, we met on an internet dating site. Um-

Jim: Very common.

Sabrina: … which is common now.

Jim: (laughs)

Sabrina: At the time it was somewhat common. It was kind of a newer, you know, kinda getting there as more popular. But, um, he had contacted me originally and I thought, “Oh, no. This guy? He, his wife just died. I don’t wanna talk to him.” And then about a year later-

Jim: You know that doesn’t sound very nice. (laughs)

Sabrina: Yeah. (laughs) Well, coming from someone whose husband had died-

Jim: You’re right. Okay.

Sabrina: … you know, I knew that he was not ready yet and-

Jim: Was it him that wasn’t ready or you?

Sabrina: No, I was ready.

Jim: Okay. All right.

Sabrina: I mean, you know, are we any… Are any of us really ready?

Jim: That’s a hard situation, not to make light of that.

Sabrina: Yeah. (laughs) Yeah.

Jim: But both of you had lost your, your first spouses and, uh-

Sabrina: Right.

Jim: … that does have a lot of-

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … trauma in it.

Sabrina: Yes, definitely, and I knew that he was going to use this relationship as a way to feel better and I didn’t want that. I really wanted to wait a little longer and that’s when we got together about a year later.

Jim: Okay.

Sabrina: Uh, he, I got back online. I had been off for a while. Got back on. He was there again and he started to contact me and I thought, “He’s too old for me. His kids are too old.”

Jim: What? He’s not that much older, let’s be fair.

Sabrina: He’s, he’s 10 years older. He’s 10 years older.

Jim: 10 years! Oh, my goodness.

Sabrina: (laughs)

Jim: (laughs)

Sabrina: It’s not crazy but it was… I thought, “Nah, I don’t, I don’t…” To me that, the way things lined up didn’t line up very well. Our lives didn’t line up. He was on the back end. He, his youngest was 14 and I thought… My kids were, you know, three and five.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sabrina: And I thought, “He’s, he’s on the back end of this. He’s getting ready to, to move into a new part of life and, um, I’m just getting started.”

Jim: Right.

Sabrina: You know? And, uh-

Jim: But d- you did see a scripture that kinda spoke to that, right? 1 Samuel?

Sabrina: I did. I did. I was thinking about it and thinking about it and I said, “You know what? The Lord looks on the heart. He doesn’t look on the outward appearance.” And so why am I looking on the outward appearance-

John: Mm.

Sabrina: … when I should be looking at his heart? Because I knew his heart was good. Everything about him, his character, the man that he was, um, even the fact that he had gone through such a traumatic experience like I had. We had that in common and that was something, that’s a bond that you just don’t have-

Jim: Sure.

Sabrina: … with everyone. And so the more I thought about it the more I was… considered. You know, if the Lord’s looking on his heart, why am I not-

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: … looking there instead?

Jim: Probably ’cause you’re human.

Sabrina: (laughs) Yes.

Jim: Just an observation, you know? (laughs)

Sabrina: And scared.

Jim: And scared.

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jim: Oh, my. I couldn’t imagine that. Um, I was gonna ask you about that because I’m sure people, some people listening right now, are probably going through something like this, losing their spouse and it’s natural to even shake a fist at the Lord to say, “Why have you done this to me?” But I think you answered the question. You accept it and keep moving forward.

Sabrina: Yeah, uh, well, in the m- the, you know, God is so gracious, He’s so merciful, that even though I said, “I need… I would love an explanation but you don’t owe me one.”

Jim: Right.

Sabrina: He gave me one anyway.

Jim: Hm.

Sabrina: I felt like He gave me time after time after time, year after year after year, the whys of why this happened.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sabrina: Even days later God was using our story to minister to peop- to save marriages.

Jim: Wow.

Sabrina: People were coming to me and saying, “I was taking my spouse for granted but because of what I’ve seen through you and what I’ve seen through the community that surrounded you, I no longer feel that way.”

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: You know, I know that I’m where I need to be and accept that.

Jim: That’s such a healthy and mature way to look at it. It doesn’t take the pain away.

Sabrina: No. No.

Jim: I mean, but it gives you context about who-

Sabrina: Mm.

Jim: … is God and who am I?

Sabrina: Yes.

Jim: Let, let’s move to you and Robbie, uh, kinda, u- uh, doing the courtship. But you had kind of an unique thing with Robbie ’cause th- there was somebody in your life that needed to approve.

Sabrina: Yes.

Jim: I think, Joy, your mother-in-law, right?

Sabrina: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jim: So David’s mom?

Sabrina: Yeah, David’s mom.

Jim: Wow. How did that work out?

Sabrina: Yeah, that was interesting, too, and I think that was part of, you know, the answers that God had given me of why, um, because David wanted me and his mom to be close and we never really had that kind of closeness.

Jim: Huh.

Sabrina: And, um, it was important (laughs) to him that we would, you know, get to know each other and get along well.

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: And of course we liked each other. It was just fine. But we weren’t close-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sabrina: … you know, in, in the way he would hope that we were. And, but through this whole process, she became to me this image of a person who had gone through it before me, kind of a mentor, and I would go to her for everything. You know, how did you deal with this? How did you deal with that? W- as a single mom, how do I raise a son? You know, I had no idea if I would get married again and she very much encouraged me to try. She actually set me up several times-

Jim: Oh.

Sabrina: … with different guys.

Jim: (laughs) That’s great.

Sabrina: And we tried to (laughs)-

Jim: Thanks, mom.

Sabrina: And she, yeah. (laughs) She just, “Please, you know, don’t, don’t do what I did.”

Jim: Uh-huh.

Sabrina: You know, it grieved her to look back and to say, “My kids…” Uh, she said, “I wasn’t suffering. I was fine. But my children really wanted a dad.”

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: And, um, so-

Jim: Boy, that’s a tough spot for a mom who’s lost her husband.

Sabrina: Oh, yeah. (laughs)

Jim: What’s the wisdom here? What do I do?

Sabrina: Right.

Jim: You know, and probably not feeling like I wanna do that again, for whatever reason, and then your kids emotionally crying out for a father. That, whoa.

Sabrina: Oh, yeah.

Jim: That, that’s heavy.

Sabrina: Their whole lives.

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: I mean they, they’ve wished for her as much as themselves.

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: You know, that she had someone to be with her.

Jim: So talk to the wedding. You get to the ceremony and-

Sabrina: Oh, yeah.

Jim: How was, how was that? Was that just normal?

Sabrina: (laughs)

Jim: (laughs) I’m thinking that maybe not.

Sabrina: Yeah, our wedding, um, of course we were really looking forward to it and excited about saying goodbye to our single days and, you know, moving forward and happy and, um, I remember walking in. The doors opened to the sanctuary. Of course I’m expecting, you know, I did this 10 years earlier with someone else. It was a v- you know, a beautiful day, wonderful celebration.

Jim: Joyful, and-

Sabrina: Yeah, joyful, people smiling. And I walk in the door and immediately I’m greeted with sniffles and sadness and, you know, you can hear people ruffling their, their tissue and, and, uh, crying and… you know, sniffing and looking over at different places. You see shoulders shaking. I mean, you’re not just talking about just a polite cry, you know? (laughs) I’m talking about really, really weeping. Um, of course I found out later that in that very same sanctuary was where they had Carrie’s funeral, Robbie’s first wife’s funeral. It was in that very room.

Jim: Oh, my goodness. Wow.

John: Hm.

Sabrina: And it had been, I guess, about three year- two or three years. And so here they are standing there, you know, looking, looking and all that. And then you’re, and then just the, the awkwardness of bride side and groom side and I’m seeing-

John: Hm.

Sabrina: … my first husband’s family on the bride’s side. You know, and seeing my new husband’s in-laws standing there, so I’m thinking, “What are they thinking about me?” You know?

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: How can they, what are they thinking today, you know?

John: Mm.

Sabrina: And it was just really sad. But we call it, we call our wedding two funerals and a wedding. The reception was awkward and, you know, you don’t know who’s gonna be happy and who’s not, and-

Jim: I think what it really shows is the complexity of remarriage.

Sabrina: Yes.

Jim: I mean you have a lot of existing relationships and they all have different contours-

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … to them and, and here you are on a single day trying to manage all this ’cause everybody’s in the room together. (laughs)

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Which probably doesn’t happen again.

John: Yeah.

Sabrina: Well, and that, you know, that’s really what the whole book is about, is about blended families themselves no matter how they got there, whether it was divorce or death or anything else. They cause grief in and of themselves.

Jim: Mm.

Sabrina: So just the, uh, the rearrangement of the family.

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: When you think of something as simple as a child moving from, um, firstborn to the youngest in the family, or, um-

Jim: Right. (laughs)

Sabrina: … vice versa. You know, you’re-

Jim: It’s a destabilizer.

Sabrina: Yes, you’re changing everyone’s-

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: … station and then for families that had a, a, a daughter, like the oldest daughter, she’ll often take over the role of the mother in the house.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

John: Mm.

Sabrina: And then you have this new woman come in, well now it’s she feels like you’re taking over.

John: Kinda competition.

Sabrina: And the, yeah, and the adult thinks, “I’m here to take this burden away from you.”

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: And the daughter thinks, “You’re here to take over my family. You know, I was doing just fine. They depended on me.” Sh- you know, they become, um, that becomes a part of their identity.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sabrina: You know, I’m the caretaker. I’m the one they depend on.

Jim: Right.

Sabrina: And then the stepmom comes in and thinks she’s doing her a favor and then she’s really (laughs) taking away something that she finds in her own identity.

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: So and the stepmother has no idea.

John: Yeah.

Sabrina: She thinks, “I’m here to help,” you know? “This is my job. This is what I’m supposed to do.” So it creates all that tension in and of itself.

John: Mm, yeah. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and our guest today is Sabrina McDonald and, uh, she’s sharing very candidly from her life. Uh, she’s written about many of these experiences and so much more in a book published by Focus. It’s called A Home Built from Love and Loss and you can learn more about the book by calling 800-A-FAMILY, or click the link at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Sabrina, let, let’s get into the blended of the blended family. You know, I, I, I came from a single parent-

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … household. My mom and dad divorced when I was five. I didn’t really get it. I was so happy playing and just loved school and so that was a, almost like a room in my mind, you know, that tough stuff at home. Everything else in my life was great and I think it kept me pretty buoyant as a little boy.

Sabrina: Mm.

Jim: But then she remarried when I was eight and this guy’s name was Hank. I even refer to him, you can hear. (laughs)

Sabrina: (laughs)

Jim: We didn’t blend well. (laughs)

Sabrina: (laughs)

Jim: And I was the youngest and he, you know, even if you look at the relationships with my four other siblings, all different. Uh, my brother, Mike, and he were, uh, n- not really close. M- Mike was already in the Navy at the time so he didn’t even spend-

Sabrina: Mm.

Jim: … much time at the house in Long Beach, California, where we were living. Dave became kinda his best friend, my second oldest brother-

Sabrina: Mm.

Jim: … and he was a chef. Um, and he, Dave, became his sous-chef.

Sabrina: Hm.

Jim: So they worked together and, and that was all good and that was wonderful to see. And then Kim, Kim and Hank were oil and water.

Sabrina: Mm.

Jim: Man, she ended up running away from home at 15 because of Hank.

Sabrina: Wow.

John: Mm.

Jim: Too much friction. And he was a, you know, former military guy, u- uh, did a white glove test in the house-

John: Mm.

Jim: … every Saturday morning.

John: Wow.

Sabrina: Hm.

Jim: Really hard on my sisters particularly for some reason.

Sabrina: Mm.

Jim: And then Dee, uh, Dee was just kinda in neutral with all that.

Sabrina: Hm.

Jim: Uh, I think she kind of escaped through her friendships and things. But when, when my mom died, we went to the funeral. We got home. Hank had sold all of our furniture. You know what I mean by that, right?

Sabrina: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jim: He didn’t own it. That was our furniture.

Sabrina: Right.

Jim: And, uh, he had sold everything in the house and we had a few boxes in the, in the living room. He came out with his bags packed and said, “I can’t take this. I’m leaving.” This is like two hours after my mom’s funeral.

Sabrina: Wow.

Jim: So he took off. I went into foster care. I mean it was just a mess. So my, uh, you know, my feelings toward that brief stepfather situation were not very positive.

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And even the fact that he left that quickly showed me even as a eight, nine-year-old that this guy never really cared about us anyway.

Sabrina: Mm.

Jim: He did love my mom. I will give him credit.

Sabrina: Mm.

Jim: He was really in love with her.

Sabrina: Mm.

Jim: But he didn’t care much about us and that was proof when he just took off.

Sabrina: Right.

Jim: But in that context, again, you’re talking blended family. I think for your son, Benjamin, who’s the oldest of your two children-

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and then, and then Robbie coming in as the dad.

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Um, had some, had some issues. I mean I think it was Robbie who was trying to discipline-

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … your son. What happened and how, how did you manage that moment?

Sabrina: Yeah, well I actually asked Robbie to discipline my children-

Jim: Right.

Sabrina: … uh, because I, I grew up, you know, with both of my parents, biological parents, and, um, my dad was the disciplinarian and it seemed to work well that way and boys respond better to men than they do to women. And, um, everyone was telling me that Ben was spoiled and that he was, (laughs) he needed a man in his, in his life and, um, as a single mom who was grieving, uh, he probably was very spoiled. And I did, I let him run the house, you know? If he, whatever he, what he wanted to watch on TV he got to watch. What he wanted to eat, hotdogs and popcorn, fine with me, you know, um, because I was just tired.

Jim: You’re trying to keep him happy, too.

Sabrina: Yeah. I’m, uh-

Jim: I, that was my mom.

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jim: Same thing.

Sabrina: Yeah. I’m tired. And I had a baby, you know?

Jim: Yeah. Yeah, wow.

Sabrina: My daughter was three months old-

John: Mm.

Jim: Wow.

Sabrina: … when my husband died. So, um, you know, we’re talking a, a, a toddler and a newborn baby and so he was very, you know, in control (laughs) of a lot of things in our house.

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: So when I met Robbie, I said, “I want you to discipline my son. You know, don’t be afraid to raise him like he’s your own child.” And I really thought… So Ben was five when we got married and my daughter was three, and they were so young. I thought, “They’ll just fold right in.” You know, they’ll, they’ll think, “This is my dad,” and, you know, he’s a, he’s a man of authority and he was a military man and I thought-

Jim: So that was your expectation.

Sabrina: Yes. Yes.

Jim: Very important to use that word. (laughs)

John: Yes. Yeah.

Sabrina: Exactly. That is not at all what happened.

Jim: (laughs) Right.

Sabrina: Because my son was old enough to know this is a stranger. Who is this man?

Jim: Right.

Sabrina: He hadn’t spent that much time with him. I mean we were, we were only dating six months before we were engaged and got married.

John: Hm.

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: So, um, he had no… “Why does this guy get to come in here? You know, all the other men that come in our house, my brothers, my dad, they were all subject to me, you know, as the authority in the home and now this man comes in here and he’s in my chair? He’s watching my TV? He’s deciding what we have for dinner? He’s telling me I can and can’t do things?” Um, he was very, you know, standoffish toward that and wondering, obstinate. Wh- why is this happening?

Jim: What do you… Well, right.

John: Hm.

Jim: And so many relationships, u- uh, go off the rails because of this moment.

Sabrina: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jim: I mean and h- managing it well is really critical. What, uh, what did you observe if you could rerun, you and Robbie, could rerun the tape a little, would you have done something-

John: Mm.

Jim: … differently, or-

Sabrina: Oh, yes.

Jim: What advice do you have for the mom and new husband or vice versa in this moment with those children in their home?

Sabrina: Yeah, um, you know, what I didn’t know then was that the biological parent really needs to be the disciplinarian and-

Jim: At least for some time.

Sabrina: Exactly.

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: At least, at least for a time. Long enough for everyone to adjust and, and get to know the new person. Um, they should become friends first-

Jim: Mm.

Sabrina: … you know, before he starts telling them what to do. And of course these are small children (laughs) so, you know, he had to tell them what to do in some ways. I mean they had to learn that-

Jim: Right.

Sabrina: … adults are the authority and, and you have to, you know, respect that and honor that. But there’s a big difference between respecting and honoring that and making him the bad guy.

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: You know, I needed to be the bad guy because they knew I love them no matter what. So for me to be the bad guy, that was nothing, but for him to be the bad guy, they’re thinking, “Not only does this guy not love me, he hates me.” (laughs)

Jim: Right.

Sabrina: He’s coming in here, you know, putting down the hammer.

John: Mm.

Jim: And you might be doing things that make it rough for that stepparent.

Sabrina: Oh, yeah.

Jim: You know, (laughs) so-

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jim: … you may not think of yourself a- as a f- at five years old that you’re maybe-

Sabrina: Oh, definitely.

Jim: … you’re contributing to some tension here.

Sabrina: Well, and he had no idea the, the normal order of, of a family-

Jim: Sure. Sure.

Sabrina: … ’cause he growed up, grown up with a m- a single mom-

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: … thinking, “This is the normal order of a family.”

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: And I introduce a male, a man, to come in the house who I respect and honor and want him in a certain position, and he of course has no idea that that’s the normal order of things in life. So I’d n- I did not explain that to him. I did not… I just thought, “He’s so young and little. He’ll figure it out.” But I read a quote one time where the guy said, “A child that is old enough to love is old enough to grieve.”

Jim: Oh. That is good advice.

Sabrina: Yes.

Jim: I felt that way as a nine-year-old.

Sabrina: Yes.

Jim: I mean people were not talking to me.

Sabrina: Yeah. (laughs)

Jim: And I could do it. I could comprehend what’s going on here but could somebody just talk to me?

John: Mm.

Jim: And I think as adults you all think you’re gonna do more damage to a child.

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And one of the things I encourage people to do is talk to your five, six, seven, eight, nine-year-old.

Sabrina: Yes.

Jim: Let them know the circumstances. You can do it in that age level language. But, man, to leave them in the dark and think you’re protecting them is a mistake.

Sabrina: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jim: And take it from me. I was the kid that wasn’t getting the information.

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jim: Um, l- l- let’s go here for a moment. Uh, in your book, A Home Built from Love and Loss, you said, “Blended families need to make their home a sanctuary for sadness.”

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: That’s incredible permission. But what do you mean by it?

Sabrina: I think in the world that we live in, I don’t know if it’s our culture or maybe it’s something within Christianity because joy is a fruit of the spirit and we think that sadness is a bad thing, but somewhere along the way our culture has come up with this idea that sadness is bad and you’re not allowed to feel that way.

Jim: Right.

Sabrina: It’s more like a s- you know, stiff upper lip. Move along. And when you’re at work or at school or some place like that, you do have to have a stiff upper lip and move along because the world can’t stop and let you cry and grieve, you know, in the middle of what’s going on. But once you get home you need to have that permission-

Jim: Mm.

Sabrina: … to be sad. And the Bible says that Jesus was a man of sorrows. He was acquainted with grief.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sabrina: But yet, who’s more filled with the Holy Spirit than Jesus? So it’s not a reflection of where you are spiritually or your faith because you’re feeling sad and you have sorrow. And there needs to be a place where people can experience that, where they can feel it deeply, where they’re not… they don’t feel like they have to hide it. And home should be that place.

Jim: No, I think that’s great. Boy, that’s good for all of us.

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Blended, non-blended families, (laughs) you know?

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Make the home a safe place to express your emotions and feel loss and grief and all the things that happen. Right?

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jim: It’d be a far healthier home, frankly.

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jim: Uh, paint a picture of the unique challenges that remarried couples face. We’ve done a lot of that, obviously, but, uh, for example, you described the spousal burden of helping your new partner navigate their own grief and all the adjustments you have to make in a new relationship. I think it’s hard when you’re in that environment to empathize with the spouse-

Sabrina: Yes.

Jim: … instead of just getting angry at him or her.

Sabrina: (laughs)

Jim: Like, you know-

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jim: … pillow talk time.

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: “My goodness. I can’t believe how you handled that. Why would you handle it that way?” Or whatever it might be. But remembering they’re in a new environment, too, and a bit of, if not a lot, of grace is really needed between the two of you.

John: Mm.

Sabrina: Mm-hmm. And this is a, I think this is easier to understand if you’ve lost a spouse through death. You understand that this person has lost someone important in their life but there is a misunderstanding a lot of times that if now that we’re married again… And I think that’s where Robbie and I had the advantage, um, because I had lost a spouse and he had lost a spouse so we knew that we still love that person.

Jim: Right.

Sabrina: The love for that person doesn’t disappear.

Jim: And you can accept that for each other.

Sabrina: And I can accept it because I was married before and I understand. But if you’ve never been married before and you’re married to someone who’s lost a spouse, you could get jealous. You can get, you know, upset that you’re not, quote, unquote, “over it.” Um, and I’ll liken that a lot of times to, um, when I had my second child. I was so afraid that I wouldn’t love my second child like I love my first child.

Jim: Okay, yeah.

Sabrina: And I remember talking to my mom and saying, “What if I don’t love her as much as I love him?” She said, “Sabrina, there is enough room in your heart to love everyone.” She said, “Every child you have you will be amazed. It’s like your heart grows and there’s more and more and more room.” And that’s kind of what it’s like when you lose a spouse. You go, “Well, I still love that person but I love you, too. I don’t love you the same way. I love you differently, but I love you just as much.”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sabrina: In a marriage that is remarried after a divorce, you think, “Well, you didn’t like that person, right? That’s why you’re divorced. They’re gone now.” But that’s not true either because they’re, that person is a part of who you are.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sabrina: They made you who you are today. So there’s always a loss there and I don’t think that the people themselves, the person that is remarried fr- after a divorce, I don’t think that person understands most of the time that they are grieving a loss, that even though they’re glad that that abusive relationship is over or whatever, they have lost their happily ever after. They married that person believing that there was a happy ending in their future and now that ending is gone. So all the things that they dreamed about and hoped for-

Jim: Mm.

Sabrina: … they have to grieve that loss. That has to be grieved in order to move through to the other side. And they’ll stuff it and they’ll hold it back because they’ll think, “What? I’m not sad. I’m not sad they’re gone.”

Jim: Mm.

Sabrina: But they don’t understand that you’re not grieving that the person’s gone or that the, or that the abuse is gone. You’re grieving that your dream-

Jim: Ah.

Sabrina: … and the hopes that you had-

Jim: Yeah.

Sabrina: … that’s what’s gone.

John: Mm.

Sabrina: That’s what you’ve lost.

Jim: It’s one of the key things we talk about with Hope Restored, our marriage intensive effort, because there was a point you stood in front of a lot of people-

Sabrina: Mm.

Jim: … and gave vows to each other.

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You know, and that, that isn’t gone.

Sabrina: Right.

Jim: You may be upset with each other, angry. You may be incapable of reconciling issues and you choose to divorce, which is heartbreaking.

Sabrina: Yeah.

Jim: Um, but there was at a time a flame.

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: There was something there that drew you together and spiritually speaking, you became one-

Sabrina: Yes.

Jim: … according to the Lord. That’s what the word says that, that two shall become one.

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And that oneness is broken at that point and, uh, again, w- w- whether it’s through death or divorce, um, that’s what we’ve been talking about today. Sabrina, there’s so much more to cover. Let’s come back next time and talk a little more in depth about this situation of blended or stepfamilies and the things that they can do. We’re talking to a large audience. I mean sometimes if, like Jean and I, we’ve not been married, uh, a second time, but, uh, A, these things are applicable in so many ways to make sure your home is a loving, good home in the Lord. So we can apply these things that you’re talking about even in our first-married homes.

Sabrina: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But also, uh, you know, for those who are divorced, uh, or have lost a spouse through death, it’s probably 40, 50% of married people.

Sabrina: Mm.

Jim: So we’re talking to a big group, and they need to have some biblical advice as well.

Sabrina: Mm.

Jim: So let’s come back and do that.

Sabrina: All right.

Jim: And let me, again, mention this great resource. Uh, it is called A Home Built from Love and Loss: Coming Together as a Blended Family. Uh, I’m telling you, it’s good for all of us. There’s so much great content in there-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … for first-married couples, but if you know a couple that is going through this, maybe it’s a relative or someone at church, uh, get a copy for them and we’ll make it easy to do that. Uh, if you can support the ministry and make a gift of any amount monthly or one time, we’ll send you a copy of the book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. If you can’t afford it, that’s fine. We will send it and trust others will cover the cost of that.

John: Yeah, donate today and your contribution goes toward making programs like this, um, Sabrina’s book, our counseling team, which is supported by generous donors. Uh, there’s so much that happens here. We invite your support and, uh, we’re a phone call away. 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. 800-232-6459. Or you can donate at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. On behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family. I’m John Fuller inviting you back next time as we continue the conversation with Sabrina, and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.

The post When Lives Collide: Navigating Remarriage and Stepfamily (Part 1 of 2) appeared first on Focus on the Family.

Jeffrey Simmons: But what I’ve loved is just saying every day, God, whether I’m in business or whether I’m in full-time ministry, I am in ministry. And how can I use that for the glory of God. And then to see what God’s done. I mean, it’s only Him. But learning to trust in that still, small voice in your heart, in your mind. When God prompts you, be obedient in that.

End of Preview

John Fuller: That’s Pastor Jeff Simmons describing how God uses ordinary people in extraordinary ways. I’m John Fuller and welcome to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.

Jim Daly: John, we all want to live good and purposeful lives, right? I think that’s reasonable human beings, even those that are non-believers want to live a purposeful life. Maybe not everybody, they just kind of get through the day. But as Christians, one of our goals should be to get to Heaven and hear those words, “Well done thy good and faithful servant,” right?

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Uh, we as believers have that desire to please the Lord. Sometimes our path in life isn’t what we hoped it would be, or it may be a temporary detour, right, and we don’t understand, “God, why am I on this detour.”

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And it can be a little fraying to our sensibilities. And, uh, when Jean and I first became involved with Focus, I remember driving up to Pomona and it was 1989. I remember saying to Jean, “You know, I think we could just give this a couple years. It’ll be our, our payback to the Lord, and then we’ll get back into the business world, and buy the house, and do all the things we want to do financially.” (laughs) That sounds horrible, but I was only 27.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: (laughs) So give me a little bit of a break.

John: And so two years has stretched into?

Jim: 34.

John: Wow.

Jim: 35, I don’t… I mean, it’s been an amazing ride. And, uh, yet at the same time, it was unplanned. This wasn’t the direction we thought the Lord would take us.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And today, you might be living in that place where it feels a little unplanned. This wasn’t what I expected. We’re going to address those issues and so many others.

John: Yeah, and Pastor Jeff Simmons has spent his life pursuing God’s purpose-

Jim: Hm.

John: … and he writes and speaks. And he’s the founding and senior pastor of Rolling Hills Community Church in the Nashville area. He’s also the president of Justice & Mercy International. They do missions work in Moldova and the Amazon jungle. Uh, Jeff has written a terrific book published by Focus on the Family called Finding the Extra in Ordinary: Embracing the Beauty of the Christian Life. You can find out more about Jeff and the book at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Jeff, it’s great to have you here at Focus for the first time.

Jeffrey: Aw, Jim, thanks so much. John, love being here with you guys. It’s beautiful.

Jim: (laughs) Okay. Here’s the right opening question.

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: What is the purpose of life?

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: (laughs)

Jeffrey: Well, uh, I-

Jim: Can you finally answer that?

Jeffrey: Yes. I’ll tell you, Jesus. How about that?

Jim: I like it.

Jeffrey: Honestly. I mean-

Jim: Yeah.

Jeffrey: … I think that’s where life comes alive is when you yield your life to Christ, you begin to follow Christ. And I think so many people are searching out there for hope and meaning, and we know that Christ is the one. Jesus said, “I’ve come that you might have life and have it to the full.”

Jim: Full.

Jeffrey: Right?

Jim: No, it’s awesome.

Jeffrey: And so that’s, I think that’s where it all comes down to.

Jim: Okay, the opening, uh, thought here out of the book.

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: You have this relationship with Dolly Parton.

Jeffrey: (laughs)

Jim: I’m sitting there going… We were visiting foster kids in Tennessee, and Jean went one summer without me back there, and went to, uh, what is it?

John: Dollywood?

Jim: Dollywood.

Jeffrey: Dollywood, yeah.

Jim: And so she had a great time with the kids, uh, but-

Jeffrey: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Jim: … talk about your relationship with Dolly Parton.

Jeffrey: Well, yeah. Dolly’s a legend, you know? It’s funny, anywhere you go in the world, you say you’re from Tennessee, people go, “Dolly Parton.” You know? You’re like, “Yeah, Dolly Parton.”

Jim: In the Amazon jungle?

Jeffrey: Even in the Amazon. It’s incredible. I mean… Uh, and she just kind of has transcended. But if you know her story, right, I mean, she grew up in rural, dirt poor Tennessee.

Jim: Very poor, yeah.

Jeffrey: Yeah. And, uh, but how amazing to see her joy and her, man, just her love for life, her generosity. And several years ago, I get this call, a guy named Steve. And he says, “Hey, uh, Dolly and Carl are wanting to do their 50th wedding celebration. And would you come do their vow renewal?” And I was like, “Uh, okay.” You know, and so I w- I was like… I wasn’t sure, like, how this was gonna go, you know?

Jim: (laughs)

John: (laughs) Did you know them at all?

Jeffrey: Yeah. So well, I, I’ve met Dolly a few times, but, uh, I wasn’t as close, uh, back then. I didn’t know her as well. And I, I said, “Well…” And I went home and told my wife. I was like, “Lisa, they want me to do…” She’s like, “Dolly Parton, are you kidding? Yes,” you know? (laughs)

Jim: (laughs)

Jeffrey: And-

Jim: Confessions of a Christian.

Jeffrey: Yeah, exactly. And so sure enough, I, uh, show up. And it was pretty amazing because it was her 50th wedding, uh, uh, renewal. Carl had told Dolly, he said, “I will get you anything you want, Dolly. It’s been an incredible 50 years.” And here’s what Dolly said. Dolly said, “Carl, I don’t want to go anywhere else in the world.” She goes, “I want to just have a real wedding,” and she said, “I want a real preacher, and I want to take lots of pictures, and I want to sell them to the paparazzi so I can make money for the Imagination Library.”

Jim: Hm.

Jeffrey: And her Imagination Library, they give books to every child born in Tennessee. And now it’s gone, you know, nationwide, and even global.

Jim: Huh.

Jeffrey: But she wanted to do something to help kids learn how to read. And even our kids, growing up, we got books, um, great books from Dolly, and that just showed her heart. So I showed up, and it was just a few of, it was just us.

Jim: Yeah.

Jeffrey: And, uh, it was a special time.

Jim: You know, what’s interesting about that, ’cause Jean, when she did go there to-

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: … Dollywood, she said one of the things that was really refreshing, she said… You know, these kids are small. They were, like, 5 and 7, or 6 and 8 when Jean took them. And she said, uh, they couldn’t really hit the amusement park games like throwing the ball-

Jeffrey: Yeah, yeah.

Jim: … and knocking over the milk cartons or whatever, but everybody got a prize, you know? Even the three-year-old that couldn’t throw the ball and hit, they still got a little stuffed animal or something.

Jeffrey: Oh, yeah.

Jim: And the person said that’s ’cause Dolly wanted it done that way, that she didn’t want a child to be disappointed that-

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: … they didn’t get something.

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: I think that’s really sweet.

Jeffrey: It’s amazing.

Jim: I mean, that’s what the amusement park should be about, right?

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: Anyway, sounds-

Jeffrey: Well-

Jim: … like she’s a, you know-

Jeffrey: Oh-

Jim: … a very authentic person. I’ve never met her, but that’s a great story.

Jeffrey: Oh, it’s amazing.

Jim: Let me ask you to describe, um, you know, this kind of understanding that you have characters in the Bible. Some of them certainly seem extraordinary, uh, Daniel, perhaps. But you say most of the characters in the Bible are pretty ordinary people.

Jeffrey: Yeah. I mean, you start looking down the list and you think Mary, you know, well… I mean, she was uneducated, poor, and God chose her, right? You think about Peter and John, I mean, Acts 4:13, right? It says, you know, they were ordinary, like we talk about, they were ordinary, unschooled men, but they had this courage. And people took note that they had been with Jesus. And that’s where the change is. I mean, these were ordinary fisherman guys. You know, they hadn’t been to seminary. They didn’t have some great education. But they were with Jesus, and they spent time with Jesus. And all of a sudden, their life became extraordinary. And I really think that’s where it all comes down to.

Jim: Absolutely, knowing the word. Of course, the word was walking with them. (laughs)

Jeffrey: Yes. (laughs)

Jim: So they had it firsthand.

Jeffrey: Yeah, yeah.

Jim: But, um, and it’s there f- and available for all of us to have that kind of wisdom that makes it extraordinary.

Jeffrey: Oh, yeah.

Jim: The key is for us not to heap that, uh, pride unto ourselves.

Jeffrey: Amen.

Jim: Aren’t we smart-

Jeffrey: Yeah (laughs).

Jim: … because we could read?

Jeffrey: Right.

Jim: You know, so often, I talk about treating people with kindness and gentleness. And people say, “Man, that’s a great concept, Jim.” I go, “What? I can read. I had a good first and second grade teacher. I’m just reading the New Testament,” right?

Jeffrey: Exactly (laughs).

Jim: But give that credit to me.

Jeffrey: Yeah, right.

Jim: If I’m not doing it, you should come after me.

Jeffrey: Right.

Jim: Uh, with regard to serving Christ, what’s the difference between being able, and I really love this, uh, phrase that you coined, being able and being available.

Jeffrey: Hm. Yeah, I think that’s a big difference. You know, I think-

Jim: Yeah, I like it.

Jeffrey: … you know, it’s… Peter and John, they walked with Jesus for three years, right? But then after Jesus ascends into Heaven, the Holy Spirit comes. So now, I mean, it’s not just every day, it’s every moment that you’re with the Lord and the Holy Spirit working through you. So I think we’re all able, not in our own strength, by the grace of God, but in the strength that God provides through the spirit in us. And then it’s being available, right? It’s just saying, “God, every day, what do you want to do through me?” You wake up and you just go, “God, I’m your servant,” right?

Jim: Yeah.

Jeffrey: “I’m not living for myself. It’s not about making money or looking great in the world’s eye. It’s I’m living for you. What do you want to do through me, God, for your glory?” And all of a sudden, you become available to God, and then you start seeing God work. You see these divine appointments that God has, that they were there before, but you weren’t looking, you weren’t ready, you know?

Jim: It’s super amazing when that happens.

Jeffrey: (laughs) It’s amazing.

Jim: I mean, that’s why we walk around like, “Wow, did you see what God did?”

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: And people are going, “Why, what’d he do? Where?”

Jeffrey: Yeah, exactly.

Jim: You know, they’re looking for a pillar of fire, and you’re going, “No, it’s connecting this person with that person,” or-

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: … whatever happened. Um, this is great content, and I, I think again, let’s just poke at some of the things that-

Jeffrey: Yeah, come on.

Jim: … tend to derail us. But, um, describe how we can disqualify ourselves-

Jeffrey: Hm.

Jim: … from the service of God. And, and then what are some of the excuses that we make that disqualify us,

Jeffrey: Oh, yeah, yeah. I think we disqualify ourselves a lot, you know?

Jim: What does that sound like in our head?

Jeffrey: In our head, I think the enemy comes in. I think we forget that we’re in a spiritual battle, and I think a lot of times, the enemy will come in and go, “You, you remember what you did in college?”

Jim: (laughs) Yeah.

Jeffrey: (laughs) “You remember that? You remember what you did in high school? You, you remember what you said? You remember? You know, and now, you’re trying to be a Godly husband, you’re trying to be a Godly father? You’re, you’re trying to make a difference as a Godly wife or a mom? Or you’re… What are you thinking? You can’t do that,” or, “You haven’t been to seminary. Are you kidding? You haven’t read this book.” And I think we just go, “Yeah, you’re right,” you know? “Oh, man.”

Jim: Yeah.

Jeffrey: “Who am I,” and we disqualify ourselves. But we’ve, we got to push past that. I mean, the apostle Paul murdered Christians. I mean, like, you don’t think Satan’s in his head every day going, “What do you think you’re doing?” And there had to be a time Paul’s going, “Get behind me, Satan,” you know? “I’m going in the way of the Lord. I’m walking with Jesus.” And, I mean, God used him to impact the world. And I think-

Jim: If-

Jeffrey: … God can use us.

Jim: Yeah. And it’s good to think about, ’cause you’re right. There’s a little hint of that in scripture with the disciples.

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: When Paul’s name is mentioned, they’re going, “Hm.”

Jeffrey: Yeah, exactly.

Jim: “Uh, we sure about this conversion?”

Jeffrey: (laughs) Yeah.

Jim: You know, in, in modern terms, yeah, they were together going, “I’m not so sure. You know he was killing us?”

Jeffrey: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jim: How we, how we vet this thing? (laughs)

Jeffrey: (laughs) Yes.

Jim: You know, who’s gonna go talk to Paul?

Jeffrey: Yeah, yeah.

Jim: And everybody took two steps back-

Jeffrey: Took back, yeah.

Jim: … and somebody was out there in front, “Okay, I guess I’ll go do it.”

Jeffrey: Barnabas, praise God, you know?

Jim: (laughs)

Jeffrey: (laughs) I’ll take it for the team, yeah.

Jim: Barnabas, I wonder if he stepped forward or just everybody else stepped backward.

Jeffrey: (laughs)

Jim: “All right, Barnabas, go talk to Paul.”

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: “Okay.”

Jeffrey: “You’re the encouraging one.”

Jim: Yeah, but, I mean, it does come down to that sometimes.

Jeffrey: It really does.

Jim: I like that idea, too. Just to elaborate a bit on the simplicity. What I find the older I become-

Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and maybe a little bit of wisdom comes with that, but it’s almost the better understanding I have of God’s simplicity.

Jeffrey: Hm.

Jim: It’s not complicated.

Jeffrey: Right.

Jim: He doesn’t need a PhD-

Jeffrey: Right, no.

Jim: … which is your point.

Jeffrey: No.

Jim: Peter’s out fishing. He’s a fisherman.

Jeffrey: Yes.

Jim: And, and h- how we can undermine our own godly confidence to be able to talk to somebody about the Lord, especially in a day where tolerance is so-

Jeffrey: Oh.

Jim: … valued.

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: You know, for us to say to a coworker or somebody we bump into at the grocery store, “Man, I see you’re struggling. Is there anything I can do? And, you know, I love the Lord, and I’d love to help you.” Just little things like that.

Jeffrey: Exactly. I think it’s being available every day. You know, I, I think about a woman, Marilyn, you know, and she was at work. And they brought another lady in, and she was like, hated her job, but she said, “God has me here for a reason.” And she started talking to her and found out the woman was going through a divorce and all these things were going on in her life. Ends up inviting her to church, leading her to Christ, watching her be baptized, and she’s like, “God had me at that job for her. It wasn’t just to make money, it was for her.” And I thought, “That’s a different perspective right there,” right?

Jim: Yeah.

Jeffrey: That is being available to God.

Jim: And what’s so good about that, and I’ve heard this said by many people, when you look at your vocation-

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: … look at it as missions work, a ministry.

Jeffrey: Yes.

Jim: And sometimes, that could be hard. You know, you’re the engineer or the accountant-

Jeffrey: Hm.

Jim: … uh, maybe not in a people skill business. How do you wake up every day and go, “Okay, Lord. I’m gonna do my vocation as my ministry. Help me today with numbers, help me today-

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: … whatever I got to do.” How do you gear up for that?

Jeffrey: Yeah. Well, I think you do your job with integrity and with character ’cause people are watching your life. I think you do speak up. I mean, I think there’s a call to boldness. You know, it says they saw the courage of Peter and John. You know, they, there is a boldness factor there. I think even asking, “How can I pray for you,” you know, people. I mean, it, it’s so, you know, disarming, but it also says a lot in that moment. And people will open up, and they’ll say, “Thank you for praying.” And, and even, you know, using those opportunities just to point people to Jesus and those little things make a huge impact and difference. And I think generosity. I mean, what, uh, people love about Dolly, her generosity, right? I mean-

Jim: That’s what I think Jean was experiencing at, at the-

Jeffrey: Oh, yes.

Jim: … place. I mean-

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: … everybody got something ’cause she didn’t want people to be sad.

Jeffrey: Yeah. And Carl, her husband, said, “Jeff, that’s the most generous woman you’ve ever met.”

Jim: (laughs)

Jeffrey: You know, she would give it all away if she could, you know? D-

Jim: Yeah, right.

Jeffrey: And he goes, “I have to hold her back. Say, ‘Hold on, Dolly,'” you know?

Jim: That is so good.

Jeffrey: But I think living that kind of life, that joy-filled, that generosity, that love, it changes everything. And there’s a lot of people that go to their job, and they just hate their job. And that’s hard. But if you go in with a different attitude, people see that attitude.

Jim: Yeah. Jeff, so often, it’s, it’s refreshing to see, uh, authors talk about their own experiences, right-

Jeffrey: Hm.

Jim: … to fess up to challenges that they had (laughs). And you do that brilliantly in this book. Uh, you had some wrestling to do with God on some indecisions about what God wanted you to do for a career after college. So fess up.

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: What was going on? What was the tug-of-war, and how’d you resolve that conflict?

Jeffrey: Yeah. Great question. Uh, when I majored in… I majored in business in college, so I majored in finance and marketing. I always thought I would go into business. And then-

Jim: My goodness. That was my major.

Jeffrey: Was it really? (laughs)

Jim: Finance and marketing.

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: (laughs)

Jeffrey: So I was interviewing with, uh, a major company in St. Louis, and, and me and my good buddy, uh, had great interviews. But that night, I couldn’t sleep, and I had a wrestling with God. Literally, I felt like j- I just couldn’t sleep. I got down on my knees and was crying. I was going, “Okay, God.” And God said, “I’ve called you to ministry.” I’m like, “What is that,” you know? And, and I felt like the trajection of my life was gonna be doing business and making money, and, and-

Jim: What we just said…

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: You can use your vocation as ministry.

Jeffrey: Exactly.

Jim: So I’m gonna…

Jeffrey: That’s what I thought.

Jim: Yeah.

Jeffrey: That’s what I was pla-… I wanted to be-

Jim: You can do that.

Jeffrey: My dad was a Christian businessman, and he was great. I watched my dad, you know, he was generous, he always invited people to church. He always served at church, and I thought that’s what I was gonna do. I mean, I wanted to work on the Chicago stock exchange, I wanted to make a lot of money. I wanted to do mission. I love missions. I want to do ministry, but I want to do it as a side, you know? And God said, “This is what I’ve called you to full-time.” And so I wrestled with God literally, like, “God, is this it?” And God said, “Yes.” And so I went in the interview next day and said, “I feel like God’s called me to do ministry,” and they were like, “What?” You know, but-

Jim: Yeah.

Jeffrey: … but by God’s grace, I didn’t take it. My buddy took the job. He’s head of AT&T or VP of AT&T. So, but God had a different plan for me. And I’ve loved it, but what I’ve loved is just saying every day, God, whether I’m in business or whether I’m in full-time ministry, I am in ministry. And how can I use that for the glory of God. And then to see what God’s done, I mean, it’s only him. But learning to trust in that still, small voice in your heart, in your mind. When God prompts you, be obedient to that, when God prompts you to step into that.

Jim: Well, and I think, uh, it’s good for people to hear this, especially in your 20s and 30s-

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: … I think, ’cause I was there. I was going, “okay, Lord. What do you want me to do?”

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: And I didn’t… I was unsettled-

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: … in the business world. I mean, I felt like people were… I was able to introduce people to the Lord, and there was good success. I was getting promotions and all that, but I was like, “Okay. Is there anything else here, Lord? What do you want me to do?” And sometimes, it was just quiet.

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: You know, I’m not getting any kind of impression or, you know, tea leaves-

Jeffrey: Right.

Jim: … whatever you want to say. But I just wasn’t feeling like the Lord was giving me that direction. So how, how do you make your heart available and listen to that still, small voice?

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: How do you prepare your heart to be able to hear him?

Jeffrey: That’s a great question. We talk about that in the book, too, but I really think there’s four ways. One, I think it is through his word, right? I mean, when you’re reading God’s word, if you just take the time to stop-

Jim: That’s a good way to go.

Jeffrey: Yeah. (laughs) God’ll speak through his word. Two, I think it is, you know, those circumstances. When you start looking around and you’re seeing God open and close doors. I think, three, it’s through wise counsel. I mean, having spiritual mentors in your life, people that you can bounce things off saying, “God’s prompted me for this.” And then, and think I think, four, it is that still, small voice. And like you said, Jim, I mean, it’s so hard in this world. There’s so many distractions. We get on our phone, we start scrolling. Everything’s going off in our life, but when we can pull away and just go, “God, I want to hear from you,” you know, be still and know-

Jim: Yeah.

Jeffrey: … that he is God. God speaks. I’m telling you. I mean, you think about Elijah, but God will speak to you. If you will make yourself available to hear from him, God will speak.

Jim: That’s so good.

John: Hm. Lot of encouragement today to listen to God-

Jeffrey: Yeah.

John: … to seek him out. Our guest is Jeff Simmons, and, uh, we’re so glad to have him here talking about his book, Finding the Extra in Ordinary. And you can learn more about the book and Jeff, and, uh, find other resources at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Jeff, you tell a story about a modern day rich ruler.

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: And again, this sometimes, uh, as a new believer or a yet-to-become believer, one of the things I’ve heard from this is, “I don’t really understand all the parables and things.

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: I d- I don’t get it. It’s not clicking for me.” But what’s so amazing is how those parables in the New Testament-

Jeffrey: Oh.

Jim: … where the Lord is talking to us, he, I think He did that very purposefully so that it would be relevant to generations 2,000 years-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: …. later, like we are today. And so the rich, young ruler, set that up as the biblical story. And then how did that play out for you in modern times?

Jeffrey: Yeah. You know, I mean, we’ve probably heard the story, the rich, young ruler, right? And here’s this guy. I mean, he’s rich, he’s young, he’s a ruler. Uh, he’s got all this money, success, but he comes to Jesus, right? It tells us he falls down on his knees. So he recognizes that money doesn’t satisfy, even though he has all this that the world offers, he still realizes something’s missing in his heart and his life. And so he comes to Jesus. And Jesus, we know, right, says, talks about keeping the commandments. And he’s like, “I’ve kept them all,” right, which that’s pride, arrogance, but-

Jim: (laughs)

Jeffrey: … anyway, nobody has. But yeah-

Jim: Didn’t, didn’t keep that one.

Jeffrey: Yeah, exactly.

Jim: (laughs)

Jeffrey: But then Jesus says, “Go and sell everything you have and give it to the poor.” Wow, you know? A- and there’s this moment right there in that story where the rich, young ruler has a decision to make. Am I gonna live for Jesus, am I gonna go sell it all and follow Jesus, or am I gonna keep living for the world? And it says that he walked away sad, right, because he knew right in front of him was the extra, right in front of him was the hope, right in front of him was everything that he needed, but he couldn’t give up the world. He couldn’t give up all the allure, and all the riches and the possessions. A- and it even says that Jesus was sad. Well, I mean, but Jesus didn’t run after him and go, “Oh, just kidding. It’s only 10%.” You know, Jesus was like, “No, I mean, I want your life. I want you to literally follow me.” Uh, and so that played out. I mean, I was sitting in my office one day, and this guy came by out of our church, young guy. And, uh, here he is a dad, two kids, and he walked in, and he just started bawling, I mean, crying, lost it. And I said, “What’s going on?” And he said, “Sports gambling.” Said, “I’ve lost over $300,000 dollars.” He goes, “My wife just found out. I… She’s gonna leave me. I’m gonna lose my kids. I’m gonna lose everything.” And I said, “Man, this is a defining moment right now. You know, right now, you’ve got to decide, you know, have you ever given your life to Christ?” And he goes, “No.” And I go, “Why not?” And he goes, “‘Cause I love money.” And he said, “I just kept thinking I’m gonna hit it big, I’m gonna hit it big. The next gamble, the next move, I’m gonna hit it big.

Jim: Right. Make up all the ground.

Jeffrey: I’m gonna make up all the ground.” And he g-… And I said, “Give your life to Christ. I’m telling you, there is hope, there’s redemption, but only in him.” And he got up, and he walked out.

Jim: Oh.

Jeffrey: He left. And I was sitting there just… I, I started crying, ’cause I just, my heart broke for him, for his marriage, for his kids. And I thought, “He can’t give it up.” But praise God, two weeks later, he came back. And he said, “You know, last night I couldn’t sleep.” He said, “My wife told me she was leaving. And I got down on my knees, and I just said, ‘Okay, Lord. It’s all you. It’s all you.'” And he said, “I met with her this morning, and we talked about it. And we’re willing to go to counseling. She’s willing to work on it. And I’m gonna figure out a way to pay it all back.” And I watched this kid’s life change right there in that moment as he committed his life to Christ. And I just thought, “Man, what God’s gonna do through the generations.” I mean, you think about not only the impact on his life, but on his kids, and on his grandkids, fu-… I mean, it’s gonna be unbelievable. But God just changed his life right there.

Jim: Yeah. That is such a powerful story.

Jeffrey: Oh.

Jim: You had some friends who frantically called you from Hawaii.

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: And I think it’s 2018.

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: And, and it was really a moving story, but what happened?

Jeffrey: Well, it was crazy. I had these friends. They went on vacation to Hawaii, so then I get this call. And, and I, I saw their number, and I knew they were in Hawaii. And so I thought, “Oh,” it was a joke. And I was like, “Hey, you… What’s going on? You guys having a blast?” You know, they’re like, “No. You wouldn’t believe. We just got an alert on our phone that China’s launched two nuclear misses at Hawaii, and we’re all gonna die.” And I’m like, “What?” And I go, “You’re kidding.” I thought they were joking. And they go, “No.” And I said… And you can go look this up.

Jim: I remember this.

Jeffrey: This was really happening.

Jim: I, I remember-

John: Yeah.

Jim: … when this happened.

Jeffrey: They were there. And-

Jim: It was, uh, it was a mistake. Somebody-

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: … tested the system, but it actually went out to everybody.

Jeffrey: Went out to everybody. And they said people were running, and the hotels were screaming, were crying. You know, they had gone down to the front desk, the front desk people were hiding behind the desk. They said, “Go find a bomb shelter. Go…” And I said, “What are y’all doing?” And they said, “We just went to our room to pray. We just went…” And we asked, uh, and they said, “Can you get on speakerphone? Can we just put you in the middle of our room? Can you pray over us right now?

Jim: Hm.

Jeffrey: And I said, “Yeah, I’ll pray right now.” But you know what I was reminded of is in that moment, we’re all gonna stand before God one day, right, and we don’t know how much time we have on this earth. I mean, we could-

Jim: Yeah.

Jeffrey: … you know, God could call us home today.

Jim: Right.

Jeffrey: You know, or tomorrow. But in that moment, have we told the people that we love that we love them? Are we living our lives for Christ?

Jim: Hm.

Jeffrey: Because one day, we’re all gonna stand before God, and we want to hear those words-

Jim: Yeah.

Jeffrey: … “Well done, good and faithful servant.” So if there’s anything in our lives of unconfessed sin, if there’s any area of our life that we need to get right with God, let’s do it now.

Jim: Yeah.

Jeffrey: That reminded me, let’s live every day for the glory of God.

Jim: Here’s a great idea. A friend of mine, Randy, uh, he’s recorded a video on his phone-

Jeffrey: No.

Jim: … to each of the kids individually-

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: … and to his wife.

Jeffrey: Oh.

Jim: I thought, “Man.” And I thought, “I’ve got to do that.”

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: And it’s already, you know, four, five months have passed since he mentioned that to me. But that’s a great thing to do.

Jeffrey: Yeah, yeah.

Jim: And just… ‘Cause they’ll find it.

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: You know, you can put it in a place where they will find that. But what a great thing to leave behind for your-

Jeffrey: Oh.

Jim: … adult children. Hopefully, they’re adults.

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: Uh-

Jeffrey: There’s a guy in the book I write about, a guy named Tim Burke, and he went to the doctor, and the doctor said, “You’re eaten up with cancer. You’re terminal.” And he goes, “Aren’t we all terminal?”

Jim: (laughs)

Jeffrey: He goes, “You know, I mean, we’re all gonna die.” And he said, “Well, you just have a couple months left.” And he started recording videos for his kids.

Jim: Yeah, that’s great.

John: Hm.

Jeffrey: Oh, my good-

Jim: That’s a beautiful idea.

Jeffrey: When, when they turn 21-

Jim: Yeah.

Jeffrey: … watch this.

Jim: Oh, yeah.

Jeffrey: You know, when you get married, I won’t be there to walk you down the aisle, but watch this. And blessing his daughter, blessing his son, you know?

Jim: Good for him.

Jeffrey: Oh. Yeah.

Jim: Good for him.

Jeffrey: Praise the Lord.

Jim: Th- those will be so meaningful-

Jeffrey: Oh, yeah.

Jim: … to those kids.

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: Uh, but why is it important to manage our expectations of what an extraordinary life means? I mean, again, we can build this up to such a point that it’s unattainable. And it’s not the goal, per se.

Jeffrey: No.

Jim: Um, what are some good ways to think about how to be extraordinary for God in our simplicity?

Jeffrey: Yeah. I think it’s being faithful every day, right? I think it’s taking captive every thought. I think when you put the things of the world into our head all the time, uh, that’s what’s gonna come out of our lives. When we put the things of God in our head, that’s what comes out of our life. And so, yeah, I think God opens our eyes, and we see miracles happen. But it doesn’t happen every day, but it’s in the everyday obedience, you know? The disciples followed Jesus for three years. Now, they saw a lot of incredible miracles, but there probably days they sat around the campfire, you know, (laughs) and just told stories, or there were days when they went off to pray, or there were days when maybe it was the persecution, it was hard, and they just said, “We just got to make it through right now. But God isn’t finished with me.” And I think for reminding ourselves everyday God’s not finished with me. I’m still on this earth for a reason and for a purpose, and there’s something that God’s doing in me and through me for his glory if I will just trust him, if I will stay faithful to him every single day.

Jim: That is good. Jeff, for that person who wants to start, uh, pursuing that purposeful life.

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: … but they feel like they’ve blown it so many times, “God can’t really use me,” you know the argument-

Jeffrey: Right.

Jim: … and you know how the enemy speaks, and even our flesh speaks into our soul, how would you encourage them to take that next positive, godly step to move toward that purposeful life?

Jeffrey: Yeah, I do. I think it, it comes asking forgiveness from God, right? It starts with our relationship with Jesus. Y- putting our lives fully in His hands. And then when we realize that God’s forgiven us, then I think the second part is forgiving ourselves. And I think that’s a bigger struggle for a m- a many people, because they won’t let go. But you have to let go of that past. You learn from the past, but you go forward in faith, you go forward in Christ, you go forward in that forgiveness, and you start trusting God. And you say, “God, use me for your glory.” You know, it’s like Isaiah, right, here I am. You know, send me. I mean, it just becomes that daily obedience, that daily dying to self, uh, and living for God. You know, I remember when we started the church and we had 15 people, but, but God said, “It just can’t be about you.” And so we said, “Let’s do a mission trip.” And so eight months later, we took, you know, 18 people and went to Moldova. I don’t even know where Moldova was, but I, but I started hearing the statistics that 60% of girls trafficked into prostitution come out of this small country of Moldova.

Jim: Hm.

Jeffrey: And God started breaking my heart.

Jim: Huh.

Jeffrey: And we started working with orphans in Moldova. And I remember the very first time I was there, I was like, “God, this is totally out of my realm,” right? You know, I… But I just saw these kids sleeping two to a bed, and, and I saw the need there. And I remember standing outside of this orphanage camp, I mean, probably 300 kids there, and tears running down my eyes, but God said, “I want you to invest here. I want you to be involved here.” And, uh, and so it’s in those moments that you don’t know when God’s gonna show up, but God shows up, and then you’ve got to be obedient to step into that. And when you step into that, man, god does what only God can do.

John: Hm.

Jim: Well, and this is it. This is the theme of your book.

Jeffrey: Yeah.

Jim: What a great resource. And Jeff, it’s been really good to talk to you about this.

Jeffrey: Oh, Jim, loved it.

Jim: I’m kind of feeling a vibrancy inside of me right now.

John: Hm.

Jim: But let me turn to the listener and just say if this is a need that you have-

John: Hm.

Jim: … you’re feeling like, you know, I’m going to work, coming home, taking care of the kids, or maybe the kids are now gone.

John: Yeah.

Jim: It’s empty nest time, what a great time to participate in what the Lord is doing around you. And, uh, man, engage it. And this wonderful book will, uh, I think give you some great ideas on how to do more and to recognize the extraordinary within you. And, uh, man, what a great resource. Finding the Extra in Ordinary: Embracing the Beauty of the Christian Life. We often do this, even this is an act of worship and service. We will send a copy of the book to you if you can make a, a donation of any amount, even $5. Um, it’s fine. We just want to get it into your hands so you could use it as a tool. And when you support us that way, you’re partnering in the ministry here. We’re gonna reach other families and help those families either save a marriage, maybe help a parent in a crisis, how about save a baby’s life? Is that worth $5 bucks? I think so. And, uh, we could do that together when we work together, much like Jeff is talking about. So if you can’t afford it, hey, okay. We’ll send it to you. Just get in touch with us, and we’ll make sure you get it. And others we will trust will cover the cost of this. Let’s do this together and be active for the Lord. Jeff, again, thank you for being with us.

Jeffrey: Oh, Jim, John, thank you so much. It’s been awesome to be with you guys.

John: Hm. Well, we’re so glad you’ve joined us today, and you can donate and get a copy of this book when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. On behalf of the whole team here, thanks for joining us for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.

The post Learning to Live Out God’s Call on Your Life appeared first on Focus on the Family.

John Fuller: That’s Katie Walters describing the spiritual battle she faced in deciding whether or not she’d stay in her marriage. Uh, the good news is, God transformed Katie’s heart and healed her relationship with her husband, Josh. And today, they’re more in love than ever before. Welcome to another edition of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: Uh, John, this is a really good news story-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and a miracle about God’s grace and forgiveness and restoration of a marriage that seemed doomed to fail. I mean, when you hear the opening of this, you’re going, “There’s no way they could’ve survived.” Because many couples believe infidelity means their relationship is over, it’s the unpardonable sin and there’s no hope of reconciliation. But as Josh and Katie shared with us last time, God can do amazing things when our hearts are open-

John: Mm.

Jim: … and tender towards him. Uh, he wants to heal broken hearts and bring new hope to you and your spouse. And certainly, you know, Jean and I want that, right? Who doesn’t? Uh, that’s what Josh and Katie experienced and if you missed the first part of our conversation last time, I want to urge you to get, uh, a download or CD from us or even better, get the app for your smartphone-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And you’ve got the whole library right there. Uh, check the previous episodes on YouTube, which is another way you can watch and listen.

John: Yeah, we’re, uh, trying to be everywhere we can-

Jim: (laughs) We are.

John: … where you wanna listen or watch and, uh, the Walters have captured their story, their remarkable story, in a book called, New Marriage, Same Couple: Don’t Let Your Worst Days Be Your Last Days. And we have copies of that when you call 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: If you’re at that point and you’re wondering if your marriage, uh, may not survive, uh, maybe there’s infidelity or too much conflict, or you’ve simply lost hope that your relationship will get better. If that describes you, I want to urge you to contact us here at Focus on the Family today. Uh, we have resources for you, like our counseling team and Hope Restored, where we provide intensive counseling for couples on the brink of divorce. Don’t let it happen to you. Get the help you need today. Let’s see what miracle God wants to perform in your marriage.

John: Mm, yeah. And again, we’re just a phone call away, 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Josh and Katie, welcome back to Focus (laughs).

Katie: Thanks.

Josh: Thank you for having us.

Katie: Glad to be here.

Jim: It was, uh, really interesting and I so appreciate, again, that vulnerability that you express. And you know, I said it last time, I’ll say it again, to live that worst day of your life over and over again, but it benefits other people. And I’m-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … grateful that God has given you the courage to do this. And I know it’s not easy.

Josh: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But thank you for doing it.

John: Mm-hmm.

Josh: Absolutely.

Jim: And, um, you know, we’ll get into more of-

Katie: The joy.

Jim: … the benefits of a road, uh, less chosen, which is to stay together, to fight for your marriage, to get through, uh, an affair and to come out on the other side with what I would say would be a stronger relationship.

Josh: Mm-hmm.

Jim: (laughs) Would you agree?

Josh: Definitely, definitely.

Katie: Absolutely.

Jim: Yeah. So that is a good-

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: … benefit right there.

Katie: That’s right.

Jim: Let’s just start with that goal in mind.

Katie: Uh-huh.

Jim: And, uh, let’s continue on. We talked last time about this acronym you created, which is STAY, start with me. You know, in other words, you and God worked some things out, what did I do to contribute to this? I think that takes a lot of courage. Uh, you may not get there on day one, but-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … that is the goal. You go into any counseling, that’s what they’re gonna talk about in marriage counseling-

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: … is what part of this do you own?

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: I’ll tell you another part of that I didn’t mention in the last episode. It is God, what is my responsibility in this? But it was also Psalm 34:18, “God’s close to the brokenhearted.” Like, there was grief and pain that I needed comfort. That’s easy to take to your spouse, “Hey, help me with this, comfort me in this. You’re not meeting my needs.” So, yeah, S was very much a, a me and God starting point.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: There’s such a deflecting, uh, approach that we has human beings have. I mean David had it (laughs), right, until Nathan confronted him.

Katie: For sure.

Jim: But we have an incredible inability to look at ourselves.

Katie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, we’re generally perfect (laughs).

Josh: (laughs)

Katie: (laughs) Yes.

Jim: We didn’t do anything wrong. He-

Katie: I’m sorry.

Jim: … was the problem, she was the problem.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: Lord, deal with her. That’s not what the S is for (laughs).

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: Yeah, that’s right.

Jim: This is not…

Katie: That’s right.

Jim: Uh, I don’t even know a S word that starts with deal with her or deal with him, right?

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: Uh-huh.

Jim: It’s deal with me, start with me, so that’s good. Uh, T was, uh, take quitting off the table. Some describe that as divorce is not in our vocabulary.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And that’s healthy. Uh, allow others to be part of the story, and then yield to the vision. So in that T, just to finish off ’cause we didn’t get to this question last time, uh, Josh, during your recovery process you and Katie did something called confessional therapy. I’m not familiar with that, so how did that work in this situation?

Josh: We had never in the past confessed our sin to each other. And so a lot of that is the thought of, you know, God is faithful and just to forgive us of all of our sin, cleanse, purify us from all unrighteousness, but scripture also speaks to confess your sin one to another that you may be healed. And so, uh, I think there was a lot of healing in that season that came from really, it being the first time that we confessed the hardest thing to one another.

Jim: Mm.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: And so, it brought us to a place of sharing. You know, Katie would say things like, “Hey, I used to wear this headband for him.” And we would throw it away together. You know, I’d never been so excited to throw away a headband.

Katie: (laughs)

Jim: Yeah, no kidding.

Katie: That’s right.

Josh: Or she would share a thought, and every time she did, it was so counterintuitive. ‘Cause you would think something so painful would, would drive me away, but it was an invitation closer and that I realize like, man, she didn’t have to tell me that-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Mm.

Josh: … and she chose to.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: And so it somehow built intimacy the more we were willing to do that. And we had to get language around it ’cause it wasn’t common. Especially for me, it would be really hard, so I’d have to say like, “Hey, can I tell you something hard?” And it let me know, is she in the frame of mind, is she stressed with the day and dinner and the kids? Can I say something like that right now?

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: Or she would say something like, “Hey, can you handle me?” And that was her way of saying like, “Hey, I’m about to say something that could hurt you.”

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: And I would have to, yeah, you know, “Yeah, this is a good time. What you got?”

Jim: Right. Whoa, that’s good transactionally-

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Jim: … ’cause you could be in not a very good emotional place-

Josh: Totally.

Jim: … and that’s the last thing you wanna hear-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … right?

Josh: Yep.

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: Uh, m- moving on into that allow others to be part of the story, what, what does that look like? I mean, that could be really dangerous, I would think-

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: … initially that, y- you know, can you trust these people-

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: … if you’re gonna talk about your situation?

Katie: Well, one thing that helped us in this part of our story is I had a night, probably the lowest night of our whole story, where Josh had found out something I had not confessed to him. He was really upset. We were at my parents’ house, and that was the first night that he had chosen not to sleep in the bed with me. And I was so full of shame. And in this night, I actually was so low. You know, that shame is trying to take your life. I mean truly, for anybody who’s felt this shame before-

Jim: And where is this in the process?

Katie: This is-

Jim: Are-

Katie: This is probably about three to four months afterwards

Josh: Mm-hmm.

Katie: Um-

Jim: Okay. After the revelation?

Katie: After the confession.

Jim: Yeah.

Katie: We’re here at my mom’s house, and we’re still trying to rebuild. But of course, I have all the public shame, but now I also feel this just distance with Josh.

Josh: Partially because there was still the, like, pursuit. I mean it’s almost-

Jim: The vacillation.

Josh: … like a-

Katie: Yes.

Jim: So you’re like, “Okay…”

Josh: … a dra- drawing her back and-

Katie: Yes. And so in this night, you know, I honestly got a knife. I mean, I was feeling so low, but I also had my Bible beside me. And I pulled my Bible towards me, and in this low moment, I started to hear God’s voice. And I started to hear him say, “Katie, I love you. I have plans for your life.” Once I could start to hear the voice of God again, I realized he was kinder than any Christian I had ever known.

John: Mm.

Katie: And that freedom started to help me understand that we didn’t have to hide anymore from other people. We, we had been the pastors, the leaders. You have to know what you’re doing. You have to have it all together.

Jim: Yeah.

Katie: But that changed in our story because we started to realize, why would I fear man when I have a loving God who knows everything-

Josh: Mm-hmm.

Katie: … who still loves us?

Josh: Yeah. And I think for me, that’s where early on, part of it was what I would say was adulting. You know, we were in our early twenties and had gotten master’s degrees, started, uh, building a family, our first professional jobs. And no one put it on me, but I just felt this pressure to posture, to be the man that had the answers, to be successful.

Jim: I think that’s very normal.

Josh: Yeah. And it works for you at times-

Jim: Yeah.

Josh: … until you find yourself in a situation that you can’t fix.

John: Right.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Katie, I don- I don’t wanna rush by that ’cause, uh, you know, that was a suicidal ideation.

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, you were thinking, I mean the, the fact of a knife and a Bible right there, that quite powerful.

Katie: Totally. Well, John 10:10’s always been our life first.

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: You know, we, like, carved in our driveway of our first home, but we say, “We didn’t pay enough attention to the fact that the first part is a warning.”

Jim: Yeah.

Katie: You know, the second part is a promise, but when he says-

Jim: The thief comes to steal-

Katie: … “Steal, kill and destroy.”

Jim: … kill and destroy.

Katie: And whenever you’ve been faced with a temptation or, like I said before, when everyone gets lost, you know, at times away from God, but the enemy’s goal is to steal, kill and to destroy-

Jim: Yeah.

Katie: … our lives.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Katie: And that’s what shame is meant to do. That why as Christians, we need to draw close to those that are broken with compassion because that’s what Jesus would do, you know?

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And I would hope in that desperation, you know, especially teenagers, just in the issue of suicide, I mean there’s a suicide hotline. You certainly, uh, call for help, make sure that, um, that pain is known by your family.

Katie: Yes, yes.

Jim: My wife’s family has suffered that twice-

Katie: Oh, so that statement.

Jim: … two suicides within her family.

Josh: Wow.

Jim: So, it’s an unfortunate thing to get to know how to respond in those situations.

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But it’s a desperate time.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: It’s the lowest a human being-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … can be when you’re actually thinking of taking your life…

Katie: Yep.

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: And-

Jim: … because of that shame.

Katie: Yeah, it’s so true. And that’s when, you know, this is critical moments. There’s many critical moments in your life, but you definitely need outside voices, Godly voices, counsel. You know, why I love all that you offer here with Focus on the Family, but that’s the allow others to be a part of your story. Because we had realized that the enemy was not each other. We had a real enemy that we were fighting, but we also needed guidance to help us rebuild. And so it was easier to do that in brokenness ’cause we were at such a point of humility, but we’ve encouraged so many couples, you know, Josh always says, “Disciple means learner.” So humble yourself. To grow to a new place in marriage, you’re gonna have to allow others to come alongside of you often-

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: … to give you perspective you don’t have.

Jim: You know, and I think about it, vocationally, there’s probably no greater a, an example of oil and water than being a pastor and y- having an affair within that context-

Josh: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … either the pastor’s wife or the pastor.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: And it happens.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So, I can only imagine that shame could run pretty deep. How did you get on your feet spiritually with that? With, you know, beyond your small group, you ended up, I think, going to, uh, Seacoast Church.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: Was that after the, uh, situation and…

Josh: So, we were still-

Katie: Yeah.

Josh: … in Columbia, and I met a guy named, uh, Mac Lake, who seemed to just embody husband, father, pastor, normal guy-

Jim: (laughs)

Josh: … but loved God.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: And he was the first guy that I met that really gave me a vision for the kind of man I wanted to be. So I asked him, “Hey, if I can cut your grass, wash your car, if there’s anything I can do to just be around you.”

Jim: Wow.

Josh: And so I would drive up from Columbia, and, uh, he was the leadership development pastor at Seacoast at the time. And we would do goal setting, and he would be like, “All right, Josh, what are your goals for this year?” And I just remember thinking like, “I’m unemployed and my marriage is busted. My goals?” (laughs) I’m like, “What are you-”

Jim: Breathe.

Josh: … “What are you talking about?” (laughs)

Jim: Breathe and eat are my goals today.

Katie: (laughs) That’s right, breathe.

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: That’s right.

Josh: And I remember one… He processed it with me and I rem- I remember one of them being he challenged me to be, uh, mentally present, not just physically present. And so even just the walking through the process of creating goals like that in a painful season, I just think I, uh, I mean it was a day at a time, a step at a time, God giving me what I needed for that moment, for that day and trusting him with tomorrow.

Katie: Uh-huh.

Jim: How about you, Katie, what was their message to you?

Katie: Well, th- it was incredible. So, we moved to Seacoast really to be around Mac and his wife, Cindy. And my mom was on staff there as the women’s pastor, but we didn’t think we would ever do ministry again. I really thought I had taken that from Josh. And you know, we saw Mac as this man and Cindy as people that focused on their family. You know, you think about-

Jim: (laughs)

Katie: … everybody says-

Jim: I like that.

John: (laughs)

Katie: Exactly. Like, everyone says they-

John: We’re all for that.

Katie: … wanna focus on their family, but do they really, you know?

John: It’s got a ring to it.

Katie: And so, that’s right. But they did, they really prioritized their family. And so when we would sit with them in small group week after week, you know, they just had hope. They had never been through betrayal like we had. In fact, Cindy used to tell me, “I mean, Mac’s just always been my best friend.” And I’m thinking, “Your best friend? I can’t stand this man.” You know? (laughs) I would just in such a dark place, but they just gave us hope. They’re like, “God is with you. God’s gonna get you through it.” You know, I would look at her and she would say, “What are you scared of?” And I would say, “I’m scared of me. Like, what if I do this again, you know?” And she would say, “God is with you. God’s got you.” You know, she just gave us hope and love, encouragement, and walked with us through pain.

John: Mm.

Katie: And it definitely changed our life because that’s what we hope to offer-

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: … others when we sit with them and couples and have coffee with them is just to give them this same supernatural hope that if God is for you, nothing can be against you. He can renew-

Josh: Yeah, mm-hmm.

Katie: … you know, all things. Um, so they continued to just do that for us, which was incredible.

Jim: You talk about celebrating markers. I think, you know, the Old Testament, certainly the Jewish people did that. They’d have a battle and then build a monument by-

Katie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jim: … piling rocks up.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: And that became a marker of a great victory or whatever it might be, a moment that the Lord obviously intersected their lives.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: What are celebrating markers-

Katie: Sorry.

Jim: … in this regard?

Katie: S- uh-

Josh: Well, I remember the, the dark days, which anyone listening may be in right now, where-

Jim: Mm.

Josh: … every conversation leads to an argument or where it’s been a long time since you’ve seen the, like, fun and flirty eyes or really enjoyed each other. When you’ve been through a, a long, dark season and have a moment that is life giving and hopeful, it’s like, man, you can’t not celebrate ’cause, like, something different happened. In that season in particular, a silly example, talk about Katie having the spiritual gift of sleeping in the car that anytime-

Katie: (laughs)

Josh: … I start it, sometimes it’d feel like before I pull out of the driveway, she’s asleep.

Jim: That’s kind of warm and cozy.

Katie: Yeah, that’s right.

John: (laughs)

Josh: But I remember a day where we were driving around Charleston running errands, had got home and I re- I had the realization like, “She didn’t fall asleep. Like, we talked the whole time. She was engaged and with me the whole time.” And-

Jim: Mm.

Josh: … I just remember it being such a line in the sand of our relationship, ’cause that’s the kind of stuff we did in college. Like, there was so much-

Jim: Yeah.

Josh: … anticipation to be around each other.

Jim: Talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.

Josh: I was never gonna sleep-

Jim: (laughs)

Katie: That’s right.

Josh: … when she’s around, you know, and it happened again. So it’s, it’s just identifying the-

Katie: But he stopped and celebrated that like, “You didn’t sleep today, you know?” And the interesting thing is Mac used to tell us that it’s almost like when you’ve come out of some kind of betrayal or if you’re rebuilding your marriage, you go into the hospital and people come out of the hospital at different phases. You know, some it’s seven days. Some, you get an infection, you’re there three months. You don’t really have a timeline for these things.

John: Mm.

Katie: And for us, we did a vow renewal a year later, which is I would say probably a year later we started to feel some lift, some spiritual lift, some emotional lift. So, celebrating the markers is really important along the journey, you know, to value, look at what God’s doing. Just like putting up those Ebenezers, my mom is the queen of that.

John: (laughs)

Katie: Like, she literally has an Ebenezer wall, you know, in the back of her, um, yard where she marks God’s faithfulness to our family.

John: Mm. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and we’re talking today to Josh and Katie Walters. And, uh, their story is captured in their book, New Marriage, Same Couple: Don’t Let Your Worst Days Be Your Last Days. Uh, give us a call for a copy or that or to connect with one of our counselors. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. And we’ve got details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Okay. Let’s get into the Y, yield to God’s vision. Just define, you know, what that means. I think I get it, but, uh, maybe not.

Katie: Well, I love vision. So vision, a definition could be just a clear mental picture of a preferred future. And you know, if anyone’s listening and you lead anything, you have to give vision, you have to give a why. You have to talk about where you’re going, but I feel like a lot of times in our marriage and our families, we don’t do that.

Josh: And I would say a big part of story came because we had vision drift in the sense that in college we had a very clear picture of who we were gonna be, what life was gonna look like. But then we started having-

Katie: We’re big dreamers.

Josh: … babies. We got jobs. You know, uh-

Jim: Life became life.

Katie: That’s right, life.

Jim: (laughs)

Josh: Yeah. Mike Tyson’s, uh, “Everybody’s got a plan till you get punched in the face.”

Jim: Right (laughs). That’s a good line.

Katie: (laughs) That’s right.

Josh: And it, it punched us in the face.

Katie: Uh-huh.

Josh: And all of the sudden, we had responded to life. Instead of going after the vision of who we wanted to become, our life looked more like the result of things that had happened to us. So yield to vision is really more about coming back to the source, of saying like, “Okay, God, you created me with good works in advance for me to do. You came that I might have life and have it more abundantly. You’ve uniquely given me gifts and talents. You’ve put me together with this person. Who do you want us to become together? Where are you leading us, taking us?” And then allowing-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: … God to speak into and guide that.

Jim: You use, uh, an analogy about the forests and the trees. I think every parent, we’ve gone to that analogy and applied it-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … in a variety of ways (laughs). Right?

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: Son, you’re not seeing the forest through the trees. What does it mean in this context?

Josh: I would say it’s so natural in marriage, especially when there’s conflict in a relationship, to get locked in on the source of conflict. Like-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: What was the thing that initiated this division, this problem, this pain in our relationship, and to focus on that-

Jim: Mm.

Josh: … instead of the perspective of believing and trusting, all right, God is authoring a much bigger story here and he’s-

Katie: Yeah.

Josh: … wanting to use this pain and this problem to sharpen us, to strengthen us, to bring us together. And so I would say the discipline of it for us was more daily having to step back from the tension, the problem, the pain to look at, all right, God, what are you doing?

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: Mm.

Katie: What’s the bigger picture? And the parenting analogy is a great one ’cause you know, we told you we have a 20-year-old and a three-year-old. And with the three-year-old, we feel like we’re kind of grandparenting at this point (laughs) because everything is cute, everything is adorable. We know she’s gonna get through the paci phase.

Jim: Oh, those last-borns get the best parenting.

John: Ah, my gosh.

Katie: Yes, they get the best parents ’cause you’re so relaxed, you know?

Jim: Yeah, so relaxed.

Katie: You enjoy it more. And, but wi- the truth is what we have is just a bigger perspective.

Josh: Mm-hmm.

Katie: That firstborn, I was so tied up. You know, I wanted to do it all perfect, and I couldn’t enjoy it, those moments. And the same can be true in marriage. You know, when you can get this bigger picture perspective, just like Josh said, “What’s God doing? Where are we going?” You don’t get so hung up on the small things.

Jim: Josh, let me ask you about, uh, the Grand Canyon. Now, this is gonna be funny ’cause I know where this is going. I’ve read the story-

Katie: Right.

Jim: … but so often there’s, if we’re listening to the Lord, man, he is speaking all the time-

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: … if we can slow down and actually just see it. So, you’re on this trip to the Grand Canyon. I think (laughs), I think Katie’s asleep in the car, by the way.

Katie: Oh, yeah.

Josh: (laughs) You are correct. She is asleep in the car.

Katie: Still asleep (laughs).

Jim: Yeah. And then something happens.

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: What happens?

Josh: Yeah. So, we’re driving up this long, narrow road with just huge, nothing but trees on all sides of us. Nothing of this resembled the beauty I was hoping for us to share together in seeing the Grand Canyon. We had just flown to Scottsdale, Arizona to purchase a car, and we’re driving back across the country. And I was like, “Let’s just see something beautiful, you know, to start this drive.” And so we’re driving up this road, trees on both sides of us. The sun’s just starting to set and I’m thinking, “This was a bad idea. We’re not… I don’t have a clue where we are. We’re not gonna find it.” She’s sleeping. And all of the sudden we round this corner and, uh, the canyon opens up the most epic view we had ever seen in terms of sunset and the beauty of the Grand Canyon. And in that moment, God spoke and said, “That’s how quickly your story can change.” And I had been in a season where I had hope that God could do it, uh, but I think I was questioning as to would he do it. And I’m like, “How long is this going to take?” And so to hear-

Jim: Huh.

Josh: … that from him, “That’s how quickly your story can change,” it rebirthed hope in me to where every day, every time she got home from work, I knew all it took was one moment, one dream, one word from God, and it could flip that switch inside of her heart that I couldn’t touch. So I start crying, “Oh my Go-.”

Katie: (laughs)

Josh: (laughs) You know, Katie wakes up like, “What’s wrong? What’s wrong?”

Katie: I was like, “What’s happening?”

John: (laughs)

Josh: “God just spoke to me.” (laughs)

Jim: (laughs) That’s great though.

Josh: So, yeah.

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: But I, I’ve been on that, uh, that’s Kanab, I believe.

Josh: Mm.

Jim: … uh, National Forest.

John: Mm.

Jim: But you come through that, you know, that view, that vista is breathtaking.

Katie: Uh-huh.

Jim: And up until that point, you’re just on a road.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: And then you make that turn and go, “Bwah.”

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: ‘Cause there’s nothing like it.

Josh: And everything about it, you know, if you’re walking through something like this in your marriage-

Jim: Yeah.

Josh: … and it feels like a long, boring road lacking any, any beauty, it just reminded me that there’s a bigger narrative at play, that there’s a purpose to the road.

Katie: That’s right.

Josh: God wants to move and work and shape something in you, but he is leading you somewhere beautiful that if you can keep going, man, he, uh, he can do something special.

Katie: That’s right.

Jim: Katie, let me ask you this. The, uh, the thoughts that kept rippling through your mind, and you’ve alluded to this a couple of times, can I really love him the way-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … I need to love him? A fair question, probably a deep-hearted question.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: A desperate question.

Josh: Mm.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: If I’m gonna go the next maybe 40 more years-

Katie: That’s right.

Jim: … with this guy.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: … I’ve gotta be able to love him. Uh, what happened, uh, as you began to try experiments to see if this is really working, if I-

Josh: (laughs)

Jim: … if I really am in love?

Katie: It really was just the whole in our weakness, his power is made perfect. Because I had a right estimation of myself at that point, and if you’ve ever been through a season of deep shame or brokenness, you know, that’s the truth. We are all sinners apart from God’s grace. So I had a right estimation of myself, but what I think I had a wrong estimation of was his power-

John: Mm.

Katie: … his love, who he wanted to be, his active working inside of me.

John: Mm.

Katie: And so I think, you know, that’s what I got to discover over that year is, wow, I have underestimated my God.

John: Yeah.

Katie: You know, he’s not gonna leave me-

John: Mm.

Katie: … in this place of brokenness. He’s not gonna leave me as this, you know, betrayer. And that’s why I think we even love sharing about our pain because we have seen all the miracles-

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: … that he’s done, you know?

Josh: Another thing that really encouraged me for that in that season of would the love be real, like, wou- could it, the fun, flirty, free, amazing marriage we’d always wanted, could he still do that? That word bara, um, in the beginning, God created, um, that word created is bara and it literally means something from nothing. And so I-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: … just loved the, when she would say, “I don’t know that I love you anymore,” I was like, “Check.” Like, (laughs) watch him, watch him-

Katie: Watch our God.

Josh: … do something from nothing. You mark those words ’cause I know God can do it.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Wow.

Josh: So…

Katie: And he did. Yeah.

Jim: That’s pretty amazing you (laughs) had that attitude-

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: … rather than some other things you could say.

Katie: Well (laughs)…

Josh: Well, it was just, it was good and, and it’s like, man, I just feel like so much of it, the angels appearing to the shepherds, behold I bring you good news that’ll cause great joy for all the people. Like, if you’re, if you’re in a season of marriage where you would say, “This is not great joy,” then just know that God is not done. Like, he wants-

Katie: Yeah.

Josh: … abundant life for your marriage.

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: So good.

Josh: So if it feels like nothing-

Jim: Yeah.

Josh: … just know, he is the, the God of creating something from nothing.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Oh, that’s really good.

Katie: That’s right.

Jim: And what a great note to end on. This is perfect and I’m so grateful to you for, again, coming and telling us about all the flaws (laughs)-

Katie: That’s right (laughs).

Jim: … but then how God tied it in a bow. And that’s what’s most important-

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: … uh, and the recognition-

Katie: He’s so good.

Jim: … that yeah, we’re broken people.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: And so often in the Christian community, we’re trying to put that perfection forward.

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And underneath that little wrapping paper is a lot of brokenness for all of us. So-

Katie: That’s right.

Jim: I love that, the, just the way you turned toward the Lord and said, “Okay, Lord, work on me.”

Josh: Mm.

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: “And then help us.”

Katie: Mm.

Jim: And, uh, you’re a walking testimony. You’re your own Ebenezer.

Katie: That’s right (laughs).

John: (laughs)

Jim: So hopefully-

Katie: We’ll take it.

Jim: … your mom has that on the wall-

Katie: That’s right.

Jim: … the picture of the two of you.

Katie: Just us. That’s right (laughs).

Jim: What God can do-

Katie: That’s right.

Jim: … to bring a marriage together.

Josh: Mm.

Jim: And if you’re in that spot where it’s not working and there’s so many thoughts you’ve having, probably, Lord, where are you? He’s there.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Um, let’s start that conversation. Give us a call. We have great, caring Christian counselors. And, uh, the donors, uh, allow us through their financial support to have about 20 counselors on staff, and they do this all day long. They talk to couples, talk to people about where they’re at and get them started toward healing. And of course, this great book, New Marriage, Same Couple, is a resource we’d like to get into your hands if you can make a gift of any amount. If you can become a monthly sustainer, Jean and I do that.

John: Mm-hmm. We do as well.

Jim: Uh, John, you and Dena do that.

John: Yeah.

Jim: Uh, it’s a great way to help the ministry. It evens out the cashflow for the budget for the year or a one-time gift. Either way, we’ll send you a copy of the book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. If you can’t afford it, we are going to get it into your hands, so just call us and say, “I, I don’t have the money right now.” We’ll get it to you and we’ll trust others will cover the cost of that.

John: Yeah. Give us a call. Our number is 800, the later A and the word FAMILY. 800-232-6459, or stop by the program description, uh, right there you’ll find a link, uh, for making a donation, also for getting a copy of the book, New Marriage, Same Couple, by Josh and Katie Walters. And then, uh, finally, there’s details there about Hope Restored, our marriage intensive. We’ve referenced it a couple of times, uh, these past few days. Uh, what a terrific program. If you’re struggling in your marriage, uh, talk to a counselor and learn more about Hope Restored. Again, 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Josh and Katie, thank you for being with us. This is so good.

Josh: Aw, thank you so much.

Katie: Thank you for having us. We’re so grateful-

Jim: Appreciate it.

Katie: … for your ministry.

John: And thank you for joining us as well today. We hope you’ve found this to be really inspirational. And, uh, we trust that you have a good weekend with your family and your church family as well. Join us on Monday when we have encouragement about living a purposeful life.

Jeffrey Simmons: But what I’ve loved is just saying, “Every day, God, whether I’m in business or whether I’m in full-time ministry, I am in ministry, and how can I use that for the glory of God?” And then to see what God’s done, I mean, it’s only him, but learning to trust him, that still small voice in your heart, in your mind. When God prompts you, be obedient in that.

The post Restoring Your Marriage After an Affair (Part 2 of 2) appeared first on Focus on the Family.

Jim Daly: John, research shows us that certainly infidelity is one of several reasons divorce can happen. But this is probably the most critical thing that can happen. Even the Bible talks about this as the one reason people can leave a marriage, is when there’s unfaithfulness. It does strike me in such a positive way when a couple can hang on. Because again, it, it should not define you.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Um, and the strength of the marriages that I see that go through this are far stronger-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … ’cause they’re totally exposed, right? You really know each-

John: Yeah.

Jim: … other after something like that. And those marriages, again, not all of them can survive that. But those that do, man, they are bonded in a way that’s very different. And today, we want to talk about it. Uh, this is a, an extremely difficult issue. I’m thinking of something that we’ve, um, created called Hope Restored. It’s one of our four-day intensives that couples can go to. Many of the couples who come to our Hope Restored four-day intensive have gone through infidelity. And the great counseling staff there can unwind that and help, uh, those couples rediscover each other in intimacy and trust. It takes time-

John: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jim: … to rebuild that. But I’m so looking forward to the program today. Because again, we are in a sexually saturated culture, and sometimes these things happen. And I think the Lord smiles when recovery can occur.

John: Yeah, and we’ve got some guests who have lived this out in their own marriage. Uh, Josh and Katie Walters are with us today, and they serve on the staff of Seacoast Church. It’s a multi-campus ministry in South Carolina. They have seven children, ranging in age from 20 to 3, and they’ve written a book that forms the basis of our conversation today called New Marriage, Same Couple: Don’t Let Your Worst Days be Your Last Days. And we’ve got details about that, and our guests and information about Hope Restored at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Josh and Katie, welcome to Focus on the Family.

Josh Walters: Hi.

Katie Walters: Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Josh: Thank you so much for having us.

Katie: We’re so glad to be here.

Jim: Really good to have you. So appreciate it. You know, uh, when we come into a story like yours, I always want to acknowledge right at the front the vulnerability of this. And I’ve always thought, uh, that it’s got to be a little uncomfortable to always talk about your worst day on, on this earth, (laughs) you know, over and over again. But people do benefit from it.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: And I’m so grateful that you guys are willing to do that. Um-

Josh: Oh, we’re honored to. We-

Jim: Yeah.

Josh: The more we have, we realize that-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: … the more people… You know, our story is a bit extreme, but most every marriage experiences places of pain that, uh, are often silent. And so just talking about it-

Katie: Yeah.

Josh: … we feel like it opens the door for a lot of helpful conversation for people.

Jim: Well, let’s pop the story open and start talking about, um, that revelation of the affair. Uh, John kind of described that at the beginning of the program. But Katie, um, what were the circumstances that led to your revealing of this situation? I mean, everybody’s gonna have a different way that that’s done. It’s like a fingerprint. Nothing is the same.

Katie: That’s right.

Jim: What was going on in your life, what was the day like when you told your husband, “Okay, we, we got a… I got a problem”?

Katie: Well, I still look back at that day as such a bad miracle in a way, because I don’t know-

Josh: A bad miracle.

Katie: I’ve had mir-… I don’t know how the Holy Spirit just got those words out of my mouth, because if you have ever been in a place before where you’ve hidden anything, and you’ve had this secret sin, it can feel like it’s gonna swallow you. You know, and that day, I’d actually gone to a Beth Moore simulcast, and I was in the back of an auditorium. And she said, “There’s a girl in this room that’s in a pit so deep, she can’t see her way out,” and I knew she was talking about me, because I’ve had, I had this secret life, this secret sin, you know, this communication with this man that I hadn’t told Josh about that were also our close friends. And that night, I came home from the simulcast. Again, I don’t know how I got there by myself. It wasn’t at a church we were serving at. It was a church across town. But the girl from the, the couple, the man that I was having the affair with, the girl came over to our house that night, and she was just in brokenness. And she started crying and saying, “Something’s wrong with my marriage.” You know, oftentimes, they say women can feel there’s something going on, something’s not right.

Jim: So she came, and both of you were there?

Katie: We were-

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: … both there sitting with her in the kitchen.

John: And she’s expressing this, and you know exactly what’s going on.

Katie: Ex-

Josh: Which was normally not the case. It’s part of what made it the bad miracle, but (laughs)-

Katie: Yes.

Josh: Yeah, me happening to be there, sitting down outside with them, hearing her process, and me being confident, like, “No, there’s no one else. I know him.”

Katie: She was like, “I think there’s someone else in my husband’s life.” And Josh was like, “Absolutely not. You know, I know him. This would never happen to him.” And when she left that night, as soon as she got out the door, I looked at him and said, “What, what if it’s me? What if it’s me?”

Josh: That was the moment.

Katie: That’s all I said. That was the moment, and again, which had to have been just this spirit getting that out of me, you know, to, to say that. And that was the… We, we all often say in these stories of confession, it’s usually the 10%, the tip of the iceberg that the person’s willing to get out. And there really needs to be grace for that in that moment, because-

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: … it’s really challenging, you know, to expose the whole of the entirety of the betrayal, the hiding.

Jim: That’s a really unique situation. You know, the, the fact that she kind of sensed something was wrong, and then that was partly due to you.

Katie: Right.

Jim: I mean, and to say that in front of the two of you, walk out… Can I ask? I mean, that period of time, how, was this is a year, six months? And, and was it just emotional, or was it the whole way?

Katie: Yeah. So it started probably a year earlier emotional, just in my mind, you know? And we used to talk a lot in the, I guess, the earlier days, about 20 years ago, about emotional affairs. If you guys remember the book the came out, Every Woman’s Battle, you know, where she said, “Women, you can have this emotional affair. You start dressing for someone, you think about their life, you covet things of their life,” that was definitely happening for about a year in my own heart and mind.

Jim: Hm.

Katie: But not that I would have told anyone, you know, not girlfriends, family. Just let my mind go there. And we say to couples that the enemy, you know, even starting in Genesis 3, the enemy who is there often plants things in our minds, in our thought life. And that thought life is trying to take you somewhere. During the course of that year, I just continued to hide from Josh. But what happened was that perspective also starts to shift your perspective on your husband. You know, you start to see their weaknesses. Do they even love me? Do they even care about me? So I think that was happening for about a year. But then on May 29th, we had our 3rd son, and he was in the NICU. He was really, really sick. So again, you can imagine, I’m on bedrest, there’s all of that happening in the relationship. And we also often tell couples that the enemy is just waiting. You know, nobody wakes up thinking they’re gonna have an affair, betray their husband. But the enemy will just be patient and wait, um, for the right opportunity. And I think that was the right opportunity in our life because we were in such a thin place. And that’s when then man and I kind of said in this moment of the NICU, like, that we had feelings for each other.

Jim: Wow.

Katie: That was at the end of May. And so from the end of May to August 8th when I confessed, I just was in the summer of hell is what I called it, you know, trying to constantly connect with him, the other man, and also try to manipulate Josh and hide from him, not let anyone know. You know, he’s a pastor on staff at the church. I’m still serving in the church. So that summer was just devastating.

Jim: Katie, let me ask you, and then we’re obviously gonna ask you some questions (laughs), Josh-

Katie: (laughs) Yeah.

Jim: … but in that context, the older I get, the more complicated these situations are. And I think, you know, when you’re young and, and your faith is building, and you’re living for the Lord, that tendency towards self-righteousness can occur.

Katie: Yes.

Jim: You know, that you’ve got this button down, and you look down on other people. The longer I live, that point is this: it’s complicated.

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, there is emotional starvation. There are things going on that nobody can really know about, certainly not the Pharisee among us.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: Mm-hmm.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And we do, we’re hard on these things, and, you know, rightfully so.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But I think the thing that I’m learning is that we, we never understand the full picture of what vulnerability has been created that nudges us toward these things-

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: … toward the enemy lying-

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: … in wait. And I, I think that’s what I so appreciate about what Jesus was expressing, that he knows our pain, he knows our shallowness, he knows-

Katie: Hm.

Jim: … where we ache. And, uh, you know, he’s here to take all that away.

Josh: Hm.

Jim: So I’m just thinking of the couple that, you know, may be going through this right now, there is forgiveness, there is grace. And I just want to… I know we’re early into this story, but-

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: … I, you know, someone’s just crushed-

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: Hm.

Jim: … ’cause they’ve just heard the news, uh, last week that they went through it. And-

Katie: That’s right.

Jim: … I just… You know, be careful about how you judge others.

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: And, uh, uh, you know, the end of the story is brilliant, and it’s good, and it’s a God outcome. It doesn’t always work out that way. So Josh, coming your direction-

Katie: Hm.

Jim: … um, I mean, the door slams, and the next few minutes, Katie turns to you and says, “What if that’s me?” And what did you say? “What do you mean what if that’s you?”

Josh: (laughs) That’s exactly what I said, yeah.

Jim: Yeah, that seems right.

Josh: And so, you know, I remember much of that night in, like, HD in terms of sitting down, emotions flaring, all of a sudden, we’re all out in the front yard.

Jim: All four of you?

Josh: Um, all four of us.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: And, um, I don’t know. I, I… You see people walk through really difficult things, and I think maybe just subconsciously question, like, “Could I do that?” Well, I’ve looked back on our story and questioned, like, “Man, could I do something like that again,” and just feel like in the season, man, it was such a grace-covered season where God had given me what I needed for the day every day in terms of walking through it. And-

Jim: Let me ask you, I mean, again, for the person that… I mean, they may already be divorced. The affair happened, they’re looking back now, they’re listening. How, how did you find that grace? How did you want to find that grace?

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: I think I had always had a stubborn faith that, um, going back to our vows, for better, for worse, for richer or poorer, sickness and health like there was a, a commitment that I made that I will finish this race with her. And that we felt called to have a large family. I think a lot of our love early on was based on kind of the youthful infatuation with one another.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Sure.

Josh: And I knew there was a love like the Father’s in the sense that, you know, while I was a sinner, he died for me, he chose me. It wasn’t about him just delighting in this kid. And there was a new place of love through pain that, that was largely a choice that wasn’t gonna be, you know, as shallow or as driven by attraction and infatuation. And so ultimately, I would say it’s all God. You know, I, I was committed and surrendered to what I believed best, and I believed that me finishing this race with her was God’s best. And so I was gonna walk through that.

Jim: Let me pressure you, because again, this is the one place some theologians would argue, too, that abandonment also fits into this.

Josh: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I’m not here to debate the theology of all that, but certainly, infidelity is the place that God says, “That’s your exit if you want to choose it-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … that you’re justified to do so.” Why did you not choose that path? I mean, you kind of just said it, but-

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: … mo-… I… Speak to the person who did choose that off ramp.

Josh: Yeah. So, so I’d say two things. One, you know, there’s very few things that scripture speaks to that God hates. And I hate divorce being one of those. So, so-

Jim: Hm.

Josh: … part of it for me was knowing, like, okay, I know that on my worst of days, he saw me and chose me. I can’t imagine a worse day in our story. And if my love is supposed to resemble the Father’s love for her, I’m gonna be all-in on this and believe God doesn’t want us to have a mediocre, mundane story. Me choosing to stay isn’t gonna bring about a okay outcome. Like, fullness, abundant of life is what he’s gonna author through the midst of this pain. But for the person who’s chosen another path, man, his grace is sufficient for you.

Jim: Yeah.

Josh: He’s kind and loving and gracious and forgiving, but ultimately, like, there, there are consequences to all of our, all of our decisions.

Jim: Yeah. You’re a pastor, so you’re counseling couples. Um, why do you think God said this breech of confidence, this breech of trust is one reason, the reason I would let you out of that covenant of marriage? Why, even though he hates divorce-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: … why do you think he says this is one spot where you can make that decision? It’s intriguing to me-

Josh: It is, yeah.

Jim: … ’cause God does hate divorce.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And so it’s kind of fascinating that this breech even outruns God’s command-

Josh: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … to stay together.

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: You know, the whole act of infidelity and betrayal is, is a soul tie that connects you to another person. And when he talks about this hardness of heart, it can be as if you’ve left the relationship. You know, and so I just think God’s grace giving allowance for that, that each person has to make their own choice. But I think about your response to compassion when you first heard my story-

Jim: Hm.

Katie: … and you said, you know, I just, in vulnerability, want to say, “Hey, Jesus still loves you.”

Jim: Absolutely.

Katie: He still loves sinners. And I think about, that’s what Jesus when the adulterer was thrown at his feet, is he recognized, you know, we all get lost sometimes. Like, and he stepped in with compassion in that moment, and instead drew to her, you know, and pushed the accusers away. And so I think, I think he makes allowances for all people, ’cause we get our own choices. But that God’s heart, his character is compassion, to draw towards those that are hurting-

Jim: Right.

Katie: … that are lost. You know?

Jim: And I even think-

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: … though, the whole metaphor scripture being the bride and the bridegroom, that the Lord is saying even though you’re a harlot-

Katie: Yes, yes.

Jim: … to all of us-

Katie: Yes.

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: … that you don’t love me the way you should love me. I mean, the whole thing is in this context-

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: … of-

Katie: Yeah.

Jim: … trust and betrayal and-

Josh: And I think I largely felt like I was praying God’s will. Like, he wants us to have a, a rich, full, and satisfying marriage. And so ultimately the work… I knew there was no switch in her that I could flip to make her want to stay, to make her love me, but I think much of my decision, commitment, choice in that season was aligning with, like, “God, I know you want this. You-”

Jim: Well, what else could you do?

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: Yeah. “You brought us together. And so-

Jim: Really.

Katie: Yeah, you who are helpless.

Josh: … do,” yeah, “do it.” And so-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Yeah, that’s, that’s amazing.

John: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and we’re talking today to Josh and Katie Walters. And, uh, their story is captured in their book, New Marriage, Same Couple: Don’t Let Your Worst Days be Your Last Days. Uh, give us a call for a copy of that, or d- connect with one of our counselors. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. And we’ve got details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Josh, let me, uh, come to you again, because you created an acronym, maybe both of you did this together, I don’t know, but, uh-

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: … S.T.A.Y. Uh, give us the, the acronym definition, and then we’ll come back and look at a couple of those elements.

Josh: Yeah. So S is start with me, and that’s in a situation like ours where it would seem very easy to point a finger at who was at fault, you know, just to acknowledge especially in the context of marriage, there’s some percentage of this that’s my responsibility in terms of the culture that I’ve created in the home. T is take quitting off the table. That’s kind of the thought, especially as Katie shared earlier that people can quit long before they leave. And if it’s quit in their mind in terms of their commitment to their marriage or in their heart, uh, long before they leave. A is allow others to be a part of your story. And in ours, uh, from the outside, we appeared healthy, but no one really knew the stuff that was going on in our home or in our hearts. And then Y is yield to vision, and that’s about building a desired future together, having agreement, alignment between who are we becoming, where are we going.

Jim: That’s good. Maybe with your permission, we’ll post that on the website-

Josh: Yeah. We can do that.

Jim: … so people could just look at that. And certainly, we’re gonna offer you the book, which has all the things you need to know. But going back to S, let’s get into that a little bit. With S, uh, go a little deeper in that definition.

Josh: Start with me?

Jim: Yup.

Josh: Yup. So in our story, uh, I knew that there was nothing… You know, you’ve heard if one person gets better, the relationship gets better. And I knew in our situation, there was nothing that I could do to change Katie’s mind or heart. There was no measure of convincing. Uh, she thought that I just wanted to win. Uh, I didn’t want to lose, uh, with, you know, with a, a best friend and him being the one that she was in a relationship with. So she didn’t trust my motives. She didn’t necessarily, uh, know that she loved me anymore or really liked me. And so really all I could do was focus on me. And there was a, a confidence that, God, I know that this isn’t your will for us. You don’t want to rip our family apart. You don’t want to see us go through a, a life without one another. You brought us together. And so I just focused in on God of, like, okay, if we’re gonna emerge from this together, and if we’re gonna emerge from this better, then I’ve got to let you start with me.

Jim: Yeah.

Josh: And so what are the choices I made that led us to this place.

John: Hm.

Jim: It’s interesting, ’cause I think, you know, a, a counselor would suggest that, that usually takes a little time for the victim, if I can use that terminology-

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … to get to that place, that I had a role in this? What are you talking about? I didn’t have the affair. She had the affair.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I could… And you got to get through that. You got to… So that’s a great-

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: … path that you got there so quickly.

Josh: Well, I still had all of the anger and grief. I still went through the full gambit of emotions, but it was a, a matter of what do I do today.

Jim: Right.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: And even as a pastor, man, I sought God more in that season than I ever had before. I was, uh, unemployed, church had quickly dismissed me, and we were kind of, like, void of community or a church family. And so Katie was still a school counselor, and I was home with the kids. And so they had a, uh, a morning rest and an afternoon rest that was really-

Katie: (laughs)

Jim: (laughs)

Josh: Katie would say, like, “Kids don’t have two naps,” and I was like, “Well, while I’m the stay-at-home dad, they do.” (laughs)

Jim: (laughs) Yeah.

Katie: (laughs)

Josh: It was like I needed just the sanity of going after God for those two full hours to, to get-

Jim: Yeah.

Josh: … me through the day.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: And so I think that’s where God really brought about that-

Jim: Yeah.

Josh: … that work.

Jim: Katie, how about you? Uh, the s- start with me concept. I mean, yeah, h- how did that work for you?

Katie: Yeah. Well, it does, it does seem easier when you’re the one that’s fully out there, exposed. You know, but the reality is, you know, what, how we had gotten to that place was I had these desires outside of the covenant God had given me. And what, what do you do when you have desires more than your marriage, outside of your marriage? And I think these principles of start with me, we still use today. I mean, they will help you rebuild in any season. And so for me, what I had to start with me was to start questioning me. You know, start questioning the lies that I was believing, start questioning… I’m thinking this is love with this other man. What I… The first realization was that it was self-love. And it took me a while to get there, that this is called self-love, this is called selfishness. And that whenever there’s this desires gap between what God has given us and what we want, that is actually an invitation for us to go to Jesus.

Jim: Hm.

Katie: That gap is our invitation. W- whether you find yourself in a betrayal situation or just you’re wanting more. You know, I want more from my marriage. I, I wish we were more fun. I wish we had more adventures together; all of that gap is meant to actually… You take that to the Lord and to each other to build intimacy with you, Jesus and your spouse. So starting with me really started questioning with me, is there any lies I’m believing? Any ways that I’m discontent or dissatisfied, and I’ve blamed that on Josh? I was a master, what I call, blame-shifter, where if our life was not going up and to the right, there was one man that was at-fault for that, you know?

Jim: (laughs)

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: And I blamed him for all of that.

Jim: Yeah.

Katie: And so a lot of these principles in the book, you know, again, really helped us rebuild when we were standing on rubble. But they have also helped us-

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: … even today to, hey, we just want to… We want more. We want to go to a new place.

Jim: With T, take quitting off the table. I mean, a lot of people say, you know, the D word is not in our vocabulary, however you want to say that-

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … but for you, the Lord spoke directly to your heart, something to do with, uh, I think you can have my feet.

Katie: Yes (laughs).

Jim: So let’s connect these dots.

Katie: Yes. So again, take quitting off the table for me, I think I’m naturally a quitter. He is not (laughs). He is more faithful. You know, but I have a high quit factor. And if there’s anybody listening that’s like me, Jesus still loves you, but he will meet you to strengthen you towards faithfulness, towards endurance. And so when I would spend time with Jesus, uh, he would give me these words of, “Hey, you are actually quitting. In your mind, you’re still going places. You’re still not believing that I can restore this marriage.”

Josh: Yeah.

Katie: I would think that if I stayed with Josh, I would have done the good, Christian thing, and I would have ended with, like, a pal. But God would show me, “Hey, I am the author of all things, emotions. I can resurrect anything, you know? Don’t quit in your mind. Really give me your feet.” And so that was my language. I would say, “God, you can have my feet. My heart is not all the way back yet,” because of my own choices, again-

Jim: Yeah.

Katie: … and sin, but still, that was the reality of what we’re facing. My heart wasn’t all the way back yet, but I would say, “You can have my feet. I’m gonna commit myself to you, to your plans.”

Jim: Yeah.

Katie: Trust myself, you know?

Jim: Josh, in that vacillation, um, I mean, what kept you engaged? How did you navigate that pain and fear about losing her? I mean, it woulda maybe been different if Katie came back that night and said, “I’m all in. I’m so-

Katie: Totally.

Jim: … sorry. I love you 100%. I made a mistake. Please love me. Please take me back.”

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: Uh, but it wasn’t quite like that. She was vacillating-

Josh: Yeah.

Jim: … which, again, puts a lot of pressure on you to trust the Lord and the process.

Josh: Well, that’s-

Katie: Right.

Jim: ‘Cause you weren’t getting the affirmation.

Josh: Yeah. Well, that’s where the great news of you can have my feet. It was like, man, that was the best news ever, ’cause at least we were using real words. And I knew-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: … just by way of her saying, “I don’t know that I love you anymore,” uh, it was evident on her face. I could hear it in her voice. And so, but the fact that she was telling God, “You can have my feet,” just meant that we’re gonna be under the same roof every night. I would pray over her every night after she had fallen asleep. I could be the one to serve her when she got home from work. I’d have her cheese and crackers.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: (laughs)

Josh: Little wine and snack plate.

Katie: Uh-huh.

Josh: I could, uh, go on walks with her in the evening. It’s like all the little things that I had taken for granted earlier on in marriage or had not done, it’s like, man, I was gonna do in this season ’cause I, I felt how fragile the relationship was.

Jim: How did Luke 23 work into your calculus there?

Josh: Ultimately, it helped me separate Katie from the act that she had committed. Uh, God just helped me see-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: … very clearly, like, who she is is not what she has done. And so-

Jim: And, yeah. And that is God forgive them for they know not what they do.

Josh: Exactly.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Yeah.

Josh: And so, and, uh, on a day where if I’m Jesus looking at these people that had mocked, beaten and persecuted, I’m thinking they know exactly what they’ve done.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: Yet, his prayer was, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they’ve done.” And so I felt like a big part of that season… You know, you would never get mad at a spouse or a friend for getting up in the middle of the night and stubbing their toe and waking you up like, “Gosh, what are you doing? I’m sleeping.” Well, ultimately, Katie had made a decision in a dark place. And so in this season, I could either remind her of her name means pure at heart, I could remind her who God created her to be, I could be a picture of him to her or-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: … I could take my anger, grief, disappointment, frustration out on her, and it just drive us further-

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Josh: … apart. So ultimately, I, I took all that to God every day in hopes that he would be the one to work in our hearts at home and rebuild-

Jim: Mm-hmm, yeah.

Josh: … something special.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I mean, this time has flown by. Uh, we’ve covered just very little of the story. We’re thinking this would be one day, but we’ve got to come back for a second day and continue the discussion.

Josh: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I think it’s so healing for people to hear what you’ve done, what you’ve gone through. Again, we started with having to relive the worst epic in your, you know, situation in your life, and, uh, yet it’s gonna help so many people.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So if you can, let’s stick together. We’ll come back for a day two and talk more about how the Lord brought healing. Can we do it?

Katie: We’d love to.

Josh: Absolutely. We’d love to.

Jim: All right. If you’re in this spot or you know somebody who is, this is a resource you need to get, New Marriage, Same Couple. Uh, we often do this, but if you can make a gift of any amount, we’ll send you the book as our way of saying thank you. If you can’t afford it, we’ll get the book to you. We are a ministry, and we’ll trust others will cover the cost of that. So the bottom line is we want your marriage to thrive. We want you to find kind of that revelation of how much God wants you to succeed in your marriage, because it is the metaphor of the kingdom of God.

Josh: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And he wants us to live it well. So we would encourage you, if Hope Restored is something that you need, a four-day intensive program, it has a post-two year 80% success rate. I don’t think there’s anything in the country quite like this.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: It is hard work, it’s about 36 hours in four days of getting to the core stuff and kind of repackaging everything for you as a couple so you can do better in your marriage. And again, a 80% post-two year success rate.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: We go back to every couple after two years.

Josh: That’s amazing.

Jim: Isn’t that amazing?

Josh: It really is.

Katie: That is.

Jim: So we’re excited about the, the work the Lord is doing in our Hope Restored program. There’s a, a number of locations. Just get in touch with us and go through the details of going through that program. It’s probably one of the best things, if not the best thing, you can do for your marriage.

John: Yeah.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

John: Yeah, take that first step. Learn more about Hope Restored, and, uh, request this book, New Marriage, Same Couple, when you call us. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Of course, we have all the details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Again, 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY or focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And on behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family. I’m John Fuller inviting you back next time as we continue the conversation with Josh and Katie, and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.

The post Restoring Your Marriage After an Affair (Part 1 of 2) appeared first on Focus on the Family.

Cynthia Tobias: I was pretty easy to get along with. Didn’t fight you confrontationally till you point your bony finger in my face and you back me into the corner and you say, “Do it or else.” And then I’ll just else ’cause I know there’s nothing I really have to do except die, which I’m willing to do. If I’m willing to die and you’re not, I win. Okay, I’m dead but I win. I don’t care if I have to die to do it, do you understand? I don’t care if I have to die to do it.

End of Preview

John Fuller: Well, a strong statement from a strong-willed individual, Cynthia Tobias. And, uh, you’ll hear more from her today on Focus on the Family. Your host is Focus president and author, Jim Daly, and I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: Uh, Cynthia is good at nailing down how the strong-willed child, uh, thinks and acts. And, of course, being one, a self-proclaimed one, as she does, uh, she knows exactly how they think and act. And then she offers us guidance as a parent, as a teacher, as a former police officer on, uh, how to handle it as a parent. Uh, if you didn’t hear the program last time, you gotta download it or get the CD because it’s relevant, um, right where you’re at as a parent with that strong-willed child. Uh, Cynthia has lots of great tips and every parent is gonna benefit, and if you’re a grandparent, uh, this is the one you wanna pass along to your adult children who’re raising those grandkids for you. Uh, we said it last time, this is one of our most popular programs, which is why we wanted to come back to it and, uh, it got a huge response. In fact, let me read a comment we received from a parent named Deborah, who shared this. She said: “I heard your two-day broadcast with Cynthia Tobias and it was an answer to my prayers. I’ve been changed and there has been peace in my home for a month. Since I heard the broadcast, you gave me so much insight into the way my almost 14-year-old strong-willed daughter thinks. I’ve applied some of the strategies you spoke of and there is peace. I can’t thank the Lord enough for using you to bless me so much.” Um, John, that touches my heart. That’s exactly what we’re trying to do each and every day here at Focus on the Family. And I wanna say thanks to those of you who have supported the ministry. If you haven’t supported Focus on the Family in a while, may I ask you to, uh, participate with us in blessing others and helping them have a healthier, more God-centric home. That’s what we’re up to each and every day.

John: Yeah, we really do wanna help and, uh, your partnership is vital. You can donate, uh, get the download or CD of this presentation and more at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast or call 800, the letter, A, and the word, FAMILY. And the conversation is based on Cynthia’s book, You Can’t Make Me (But I Can Be Persuaded)-

Jim: (laughs).

John: … and here now is today’s Focus on the Family.

Jim: Cynthia, last time we were talking about that parent that has hit that natural boiling point. I mean, they… this is yet another grocery store moment, where they’ve said, “No,” to that candy bar. And sounds like I’m speaking from experience which-

John: This is a-

Jim: … I am.

John: This is a friend of yours, right? (laughs).

Cynthia: (laughs).

Jim: (laughs). A good friend of mine.

John: (laughs).

Jim: Uh, but, you know, you just get to that point you’re, you’ve said it as many as you can say it and they’re not listening to you and you’re saying, “What am I going to do?” And you hit that boiling point. Your nature human emotions, bang! You snap. And last time, uh, you gave us three quick, uh, ways to manage that. Let’s hit those again as a recap from last time.

Cynthia: Sure. We call it the strong-willed child emergency kit and that is your first step is to back off, get a little perspective, just back off, walk away if you have to, just a little ways. The second one is, is to figure out what the point is. What am I trying to accomplish? Is there another way to get there? So, can I just, you know, dial it back just a little. And then the third way is to just be honest. Um, to say, “Look, I’m not going to be able to do this here. I- I’m, I’m just… I’m going to say something I’ll regret, so I need to back off again.” Just honesty.

John: And that sounds like you’re giving up right there.

Cynthia: It does in some ways, but here… And, and I don’t know if this’ll be all that popular with the parents who are listening. ‘Cause let me just tell you one thing, as a strong-willed child, the honesty in a strong-willed parent, I had to apply to myself is it’s harder to do to ourselves. If I’m the strong-willed parent and I’ve got a strong-willed kid and we’re going toe-to-toe, I don’t want to lose. I’m not going to lose. And that kid’s not going to lose, right? And so one of us has to be able to figure out how to do this. And, and one clear example I remember when I was a police officer. You know, I’m a young, impetuous 26, 27-year-old police officer. I’m the only woman on the force for, for several years and so I’m, you know, I’m feeling pretty good in my uniform and I, I pull this guy over for, you know, he just didn’t completely stop. And so I’m thinking in my head, “I’ll just kind of give him a warning and just tell him that’s not what he should do.” So, I walked up to the car and before I could even say a word, he says to me: “Why’d you pull me over? You can’t give me a ticket. You just can’t even give me a ticket. You’re not even a real cop. You’re only a woman.”

Jim: Ooh.

John: Ouch.

Cynthia: And-

Jim: That wasn’t a very smart thing to say.

John: Them’s fightin’ words (laughs).

Jim: (laughs).

Cynthia: And so what I… You know what I did, right? I said, “You’re right, I’m not going to give you a ticket. I’m going to give you three.”

John: (laughs).

Jim: (laughs).

Cynthia: And he goes, “What?” And I said, “Yeah, the tread on your tires, the failure to notify department licensing about change of address within 30 day”-… I mean, I was doing little chippy things, right? Well, what happened immediately was things escalated quickly.

John: Mm.

Cynthia: In fact, he got out of the car and then… I mean, it turned into a fight and back-up-

Jim: Oh, my.

Cynthia: … and he ended up in jail. And, you know, the bottom line? It’s my fault.

John: Mm.

Cynthia: It was my fault. Uh, I let escalate. I let him bait me. And I learned then as I’ve learned through the years over and over, that those who anger you, control you. So, the moment he made me angry, the moment he made me lose my cool, and escalate and, and let him have it, I lost. He won. He was now in control. And even though I eventually got to put him in jail and go, “Ha! So there!” Nobody really won from that. And, you know, every parent knows that that’s true. You don’t feel good when you lose it and you snap and you… and you just say, “You’re grounded for life!” Or, “I- I’m taking away everything that you care about and I’m”-… You know, you can make horrible punishments and you don’t feel about that.

John: Mm.

Cynthia: You just… You lost it and you let that kid know, I can be weak. I can give in, and so I can’t count on you. I mean, as a strong-willed kid, I, I need to count on you to be solid. I need to know that you’re going to hold steady. And if you scream and yell at me, you’re not holding steady. That’s why your calm, firm voice says, “Nice try. We’re not going to do it.” And you, you don’t lose your cool. ‘Cause as a strong-willed kid, if I know the buttons to make you angry, I will push them.

Jim: Just about every day.

John: (laughs).

Cynthia: Every day-

Jim: The, uh-

Cynthia: Every chance I get (laughs).

Jim: Cynthia, when you’re… when you’re in that moment… I mean, what’s so important in what you’re saying that’s so critical is to de-escalate-

Cynthia: Yes.

Jim: … and everybody wins in that situation, when you can actually take the, uh, energy out of the process. I’ve tried to remember that when, you know, Trent and I are, are having our little, uh, parental problem (laughs). And, and, uh, you know, to put a smile on your face and to put your arm around him and say, “Listen, you know, Mom’s just asking you to do this. Can you honor your mom by doing that?”

Cynthia: Exactly. And that’s-

Jim: And-

Cynthia: And then that melts me there, yeah.

Jim: It, it… And they do jump in. What I notice with, with Trent which is so wonderful, he usually gets around to doing it, but to your point of control, he wants to do it when he wants to do it, within a reasonable amount of time. And now, we’ve begun to relax about that. So, if we say, “You know, we really would like you to mow the lawn.” I say, “Can you just get it done sometime this afternoon?”

Cynthia: Yeah.

Jim: And he gets it done. And I don’t stay harping on him. You know it’s one o’clock and you haven’t got it done yet. Well, you said sometime this afternoon. But you need to find ways to let them have some of that control, don’t you?

Cynthia: Yeah, you know, and the other little secret is did they empathize, you know? I know that you hate doing that and I… You know I wish there was another way around it, I sure appreciate you doing it. Do you think you could have that done by 2? I mean, as long as you know I hate it, then I’ll probably do it better for you.

John: Mm.

Cynthia: But when you just act like it’s my job to do it and I just better do it and just, you know, pull myself together, there’s something about that empathy. Again, it goes to the relationship-

John: Mm.

Cynthia: … where, where you and I can look at each other and you say, “I know it’s a bummer, isn’t it?”

Jim: You know some of this it, it almost sounds like respect as well.

Cynthia: It’s all respect.

Jim: It’s hard… It’s hard for a parent to understand that. I think I had to learn that. And believe me, even though I’m giving you good examples (laughs), it doesn’t always work that way.

Cynthia: Yep. I know that too.

Jim: I’ve got plenty of poor examples in my parenting.

Cynthia: Me too.

Jim: But it does come down to realizing that this is a human being.

Cynthia: Yep.

Jim: You gave birth to this human being, uh, but you need to respect your child in that way. Be honest with them, talk with them, don’t simply control them like a robot.

Cynthia: That’s right. And as parents, we don’t often realize, but they’re watching us very closely and they’re talking to us the same way we’ve been talking to them.

John: Mm-hmm.

Cynthia: But as the parent, that’s unacceptable to us. You can’t treat me that way. You cannot treat me with such disrespect. Without realizing, our responsibility as the parent is, we have to model it for them. How else will they know to practice? And that’s when the, the, the introspection comes in with the parent who doesn’t… You know, I shouldn’t have to kowtow to my child. That-

Jim: I don’t answer to you.

Cynthia: … child should just do. I don’t answer to you. They answer to me.

Jim: (laughs).

Cynthia: And, and then you think, “Well, I don’t know.” I think, you know, you, you get what you give and it’s hard-

Jim: Yeah.

Cynthia: … it’s hard to sometimes deal with that.

Jim: Uh, Cynthia, one thing that I’ve observed as well is it’s hard to pick to the battles. Uh, everything can look like the big stuff when in reality there’s probably only a handful of things that are the real big things, and then a lot-

Cynthia: That’s right.

Jim: … of it, it’s the little stuff. And we tend to sweat the little stuff maybe even more than the big stuff, but give us the examples of how we go about discerning what are the big battles and what the ones that w- we don’t need to win.

Cynthia: Right. And, and this is a classic, of course. And w-… You know, we, all of us as parents, have to decide what am I going to go to the wall for?

John: Mm-hmm.

Cynthia: ‘Cause I can’t go to the wall for everything or I’m not going to get anything. Um, if you make everything a big, fat, hairy deal, then everything will turn into a big, fat, hairy deal. And, and you will fight a battle on everything. So, just decide what… You know, in our home, physical safety is always a go to the wall issue. I’m-… It’s not going to be negotiable whether you walk out in traffic, or whether you don’t wear a seatbelt. So, physical safety, I’ll go to the wall for. Spiritual and moral values. I’m not going to make those negotiable. I’m not going to let you lie, or cheat, or steal, or hurt somebody. I’m going to wall for those. Now, if I’m going to get those, I’ve got to back off of other things. Exactly what you wear, um, exactly what you say or how you say it, I can’t have everything. So, as parents, it’s hard, but you have to figure out, is this one really worth it and because you’re not going to get everything and you may lose the stuff that was really worth it if you’re going to harp on the stuff that wasn’t.

John: Mm.

Cynthia: And the classic example when Mike and Rob were about eight, um, Mike, my strong-willed son at breakfast table, he says to his brother, “Hey, Rob, pass me the cereal.” And I said, “Mike, what do you say?” Robert pass me the cereal. Do it now.

Jim: (laughs).

John: (laughs). Not the words you were thinking.

Jim: Not quite what you thought.

Cynthia: I said, “Michael Tobias!” He goes, “I’m not going to say that word. I-… You can’t make me say that word. If I have to say that word, I’m just not going to eat breakfast.” And I said, “That’s fine, Michael Tobias. Because this is worth it to me. I’m not going to raise a rude, ill-mannered, ill-behaved child. This one’s worth it.” And he got up and he stomped down the hall and he went into his bedroom and he slammed the door. And he wasn’t even in there a minute before he s- stomped back down the hall and sat at the table and then he went, “Please!”

Jim: (laughs).

John: (laughs).

Cynthia: Now, you know, as a parent what I’m thinking, right? I’m thinking, “That’s not how we say it. Let’s start over.” But I did then what I did at least a couple of times a week. I mean, he’s 21 now, right? I covered, physically covered my mouth-

John: Mm.

Cynthia: And didn’t let myself say anything ’cause I realized I just won-

John: Mm.

Cynthia: … my go to the wall issue. If I’m going to keep pressing, if I’m going to keep convincing, I’m going to keep picking at him for exactly how he does it, I’m going to lose it all. We, we have to as parents put your hand over your mouth sometimes. Just think, did I get the really crucial point and does it really have to be exactly my way? Because if it does, everything’s going to disintegrate and it’s not worth it.

Jim: And in fact, what happens if, if you can’t do that, the child then sees you as renegotiating the deal constantly.

Cynthia: Right.

Jim: That’s what’s funny. I mean, Trent has actually said that to me. You keep renegotiating it. You told me to say please, I said please. You didn’t say I had to please kindly.

John: Mm-hmm.

Cynthia: That’s right.

Jim: I mean, they get-

Cynthia: Yeah.

Jim: … they get back to that exactness, don’t they?

Cynthia: That’s right ’cause the letter of the law can always get you. I can always get you with that. And it’s… Again, it’s a sense of humor, you know, the nice try and, you know, if you can just… If I do something outrageous that angers you, just enrages you, if before you just jump on me and say, “I can’t believe you just said that. You better”-… If before you do that, you can give me a fire escape, just a little one, you can say, “Ah, nice try. I thought you were serious.” And then I have a moment where I can say, “Oh, yeah, sorry.” And really the majority of the time, you’ll be surprised how often I will take that out. But one of my favorite stories my, my friend Sharon in Greenville, South Carolina, she, uh, her strong-willed son, Brandon, when she was about 16… Now, Sharon, she’s a by the book mom, but she’d been really practicing and, um, Brandon, he was about a ninth grader, and she picked him up after school and he’d been, you know, it-… He was all ramped up in conversation with his friends and stuff. And he got in the car and he tossed his backpack in the backseat and he got in the car and Sharon said, “So, Brandon, how was your day at school?” He said, “It was great chick.”

Jim: (laughs).

John: (laughs).

Cynthia: Well, well…

Jim: That doesn’t go down well in South Carolina.

Cynthia: So, Sharon, she’s got no… She’s got her hand over her mouth right away, right? And Brandon he’s frozen in fear ’cause he just realizes what he has said.

John: Mm.

Cynthia: He didn’t even think before he said it. He’s frozen in fear. So, so Sharon, she pulls herself together for a few seconds and then she says to him, “That’s Mrs. Chick to you.”

John: (laughs).

Jim: (laughs).

Cynthia: And he said, “Oh, Mom, I’m sorry.” Now, see if he hadn’t said, “Oh, Mom, I’m sorry,” then she would’ve had to go ahead and enforce the disrespect rule. You have to do that. You sometimes have to do it the hard way. But you have him just that moment that said, “You didn’t mean that, right?”

Jim: He caught it.

Cynthia: I mean, he sensed it. He caught it. He got a chance to correct it himself. He got control-

Jim: Right.

Cynthia: … and control of himself and instead of having a bony finger, he had a relationship with a mom who understood for a moment that he got carried away and he didn’t really mean it and she gave him just a second, a few seconds, to make it right.

Jim: Uh, Cynthia, we haven’t talked about this last time or this time, but the, the, uh, siblings of a strong-willed child-

John: Yeah.

Jim: … uh, let’s talk about that dynamic because often that strong-willed can consume all the oxygen in the home. I mean, it’s all about them all the time. And then you got little Junior (laughs), next to Big Brother and how do we ensure that we’re protecting that child in the proper way emotionally, sometimes even physically?

Cynthia: Of course, one of the things you should just do with all your kids is, you know, continually re-enforce strengths and point out strengths in front of your brother or sister and, and encourage them to recognize the strengths in that they’re different. When it comes to the strong-willed child, you’re right. A lot of times there’s a whole lot more going on with the strong-willed child and this more compliant brother or sister doesn’t get the attention. What I did… Robert was the compliant twin. He’s two minutes younger-

Jim: (laughs).

Cynthia: … than his twin brother, Mike, right? And Robert tell everybody it was the best two minutes of his life.

Jim: (laughs).

John: (laughs).

Jim: That says it right there, doesn’t it?

Cynthia: (laughs). Says it all doesn’t it? And when he was younger, I think he was probably about second or third grade and his brother constantly, you know, getting attention and stuff and I kind of drew him aside one morning and I put my arm around him and I said, “Robert, do you have any idea how valuable you’re going to be when you grow up?” He says, “What do you mean?” And I said, “Y- You’re going to be able to work almost any place you want because you will have incredible experience and ability to work with strong-willed people. You’ve practiced with the best: your brother, your mother… I mean, you’re learning every day how to bring out the best in somebody really strong-willed and, and strong personality.” He goes, “Yeah, I guess maybe you’re right.” And, you know, it’s really come true in many ways. As he’s gone through, I try to reinforce that in him and to say, “You know what you’re learning is how to deal with a strong personality. That is a good strength to have and it’ll be valuable to you later.” So, again, just reinforcing it’s not all that I have to have all that much attention as a more compliant child, it’s just the attention I get is encouraging and it’s positive and it’s strong.

John: Uh, as we talk Cynthia about the dynamics in the home, um, address some of those things that strong-willed kids do to their siblings because everything’s a battle, not just with the parent, but with the siblings as well, isn’t it?

Cynthia: Well, you know, my-… You could talk to my sister who’s five years younger than me, right? And she’s the compliant person. Not s-… Compliant doesn’t mean weak. All right? It doesn’t mean that you’re, you’re a namby-pamby-

Jim: Right. It’s a different personality-

Cynthia: It’s a different personality.

Jim: … trait.

Cynthia: It’s like the other hand. It’s compliant is to complete. And so, but, you know, I was not… I could have been perceived as the bully growing up, but I was the leader. Definitely the leader. And I was the boss kind of with her and people will ask her often and say, “Weren’t you kind of resentful that your sister, you know, kind of pushed you around and told you everything to do?” And she just smiles sweetly to this day and she says, “Oh, no.” She said, “I, I knew that I would never get in trouble.” She said, “It”-

Jim: (laughs).

John: (laughs).

Cynthia: … “anytime there was ever any trouble (laughs), I could always say, ‘It’s Cindy’s fault.'”

Jim: You were cover.

Cynthia: And I knew that was true.

Jim: (laughs). You were proving cover.

Cynthia: I, uh, exactly, I did.

John: And strong-willed kids do tend to get most of the discipline, don’t they?

Cynthia: We do tend… I mean, we take the bullet. It’s okay ’cause we’re willing to.

Jim: Well, parents will jump to the obvious, it had to be you.

Cynthia: That’s right.

Jim: And you’re the one that stole the cookie, fess up.

Cynthia: Right.

Jim: That can be hard too because a parent needs to be careful not to put undeserved guilt onto that-

Cynthia: Right.

Jim: … strong-willed child when… You know, I’ve had that dialogue in our home where Trent will say, “Hey, Troy did it, not me.” (laughs)

Cynthia: Yeah. And again, here you want to shift some responsibility and ask… By asking some questions, you’ll be in a better position. You can say, “Wow, you really hurt your sister’s feelings. Did you mean to do that?” See, and, and if I say, “No,” then I can say, “I- I didn’t think so. How did you want to make that right?” Now, what you’re doing is you’re shifting responsibility and control to me and I’m recognizing that, yeah, I did hurt somebody’s feelings. Now, if I say, “Did you mean to hurt your sister’s feelings?” And this-… the kid says, “Yes,” well now, we’ve got a different situation. We’re going to have to do it the hard way, but the hard way doesn’t happen nearly as often is if you shift responsibility and recognition to me as the strong-willed kid, “Yeah, I guess I did get a little bossy.”

Jim: In fact, Cynthia, in your book, You Can’t Make Me (But I Can Be Persuaded), uh, you give 10 tips and I think we should post these on the website, John.

John: Oh, great idea, yeah.

Jim: I won’t mention them all here, but, uh, some of them, if you have a strong-willed child, these are going to hit you because they did with me. One, value my ability to see the world from a unique perspective. And that’s beautiful. That’s that identity and that respect-

Cynthia: Right.

Jim: … that we talked about. Two, you mentioned, remember we need compelling problems to solve, not just chores to do. We talked about that. Uh, three ask for my input. Keep me in the information loop.

Cynthia: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, if you have that strong-willed child, you’re seeing your child in these. What are the others that you think are critical? I mean, you have 10 there. Do you want to run through the other seven?

Cynthia: Well, you know, we, we talk about protect the relationship because you’re not going to get much of anything with me if we don’t have one. Um, and we talk about smile at me more often. And this you have to practice. Smile when you don’t feel like it.

Jim: That’s hard to do.

Cynthia: It is.

Jim: That’s Christian and that’s hard. (laughs).

John: (laughs).

Cynthia: It is, but even scientifically, they say if you smile, it starts out fake, but it kind of turns into genuine.

John: Mm.

Cynthia: Uh, we talk about don’t let me push you around, but don’t push me around either.

Jim: Talk about that for a minute. Don’t let me push you around, but don’t push me around either. Boy, I can resonate with that with Trent. Can you John?

John: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s a natural thing for a parent to do is to say, “You will.”

Jim: Yeah.

John: And that’s what you’re talking about here.

Cynthia: Right. Right. Because it’s, uh, it’s efficient, right? We already know what the deal is and we know what has to happen here, so just do it. And, and it takes a lot more time and a lot more effort to stop and let me try a little and ask a little and argue with you a little, it’s much more frustrating. Um, speak to me respectfully, but firmly, number seven. And that’s just really, really important. And that takes the most practice, but if you can stay calm, then you’ve won so many battles, more than you think. And then of course, choose your battles. Don’t sweat the small stuff. Uh, give me some control over my own life and circumstances and, you know, here especially, we find kids… For instance, kids that are foster kids or kids that have through divorce, kids that have lost… suffered the loss of a parent. Those are the things that take control away from me as a strong-willed child. I have lost control over my life. I’ve lost control over so much. I’ve been abandoned. Things haven’t worked out. I’ve got an alcoholic parent. So, I seek to control whatever I can, even if it’s a small, even if it’s a negative thing. So, any way you can build in giving me some control over my circumstances. And then number 10, which is so important and, and what God does to us all the time is, you know, remind me you love me. Even when you have to correct me, even when I have to learn the hard way, if you could just remind me. You know, you’re so special to me. You are so important to me and I don’t know if I’ve told you lately, but one of the things I love about you is… If you could just remind me how much you love me, makes all the difference in the world.

Jim: Well, those are, you know, 10 beautiful things that you have in your book. Uh, for the last few minutes here, talk about that strong-willed child that’s the grown adult maybe in their 20s and, uh, they’re back home. I mean, the economy right now, there are a lot of people that are in that seat. Uh, how does a parent (laughs)-

Cynthia: (laughs), yeah.

Jim: … of an adult, strong-willed child, how do you set the ground rules there for what will and what will not be tolerated?

Cynthia: It-… It’s tough, isn’t it? ‘Cause, you know, part of you is glad to see the child, part of you is not so glad-

Jim: (laughs).

John: (laughs).

Cynthia: … to see the child. Um, you want your child to succeed and you’ve got a lot of ideas for how they could do that, right?

John: Mm.

Cynthia: But here… But they’re 21, or they’re 26, or they’re 30 and, uh, I’m not all that receptive as a strong-willed adult, young adult, not that receptive to your ideas anymore, ’cause, ’cause, you know, I feel like I have my own ideas and you’re, you’re quick to say, “Well, obviously, your ideas didn’t work,” and there’s that poster that says, you know, a lot of kids to leave home to set the world on fire come back for more matches.

John: (laughs).

Jim: (laughs).

Cynthia: That’s where they are (laughs).

Jim: (laughs).

Cynthia: And we are more than happy to give it to them, right? But again, here it’s really important. Now, you’re dealing with a young adult, so the honesty, the transparency, you know, sit down at the table and say, “You know, we’re happy to have you stay while you get on your feet, um, let’s talk about what you think is fair.” You know, let… You know, maybe we’re, we’re not going to charge you rent, for example. But what do you think is fair as far as what, what you might give us in exchange for, and how will we know that you’re working on, you know… Ask questions. Ask questions. Ask questions. Instead of saying, “Well, look you can live here, but you’re going to need to do this, and I think it’s only fair that you do”… You have to resist the temptation with that young adult who they’re supposed to be thinking for themselves. You remind them how much you love them and how much you’re supporting them and how happy you are that they’re there, but, you know, instead of bugging them and nagging them, you just ask. You know, how would, would you like me to remind you about this? And how would you like to have this? And with that again, authority in your voice that says, “You know, it’s really not an option. I’m just kind of giving you this”-

Jim: Yeah.

Cynthia: … “opportunity to tell me what you want.”

Jim: Well, I love that illustration of putting your hand over your mouth-

Cynthia: Yeah, I still do that (laughs).

Jim: … as a parent. No, that’s good. That’s good to see.

John: What I hear you saying and Jim, you have said this time and again during the past few years that we’ve been in the studio together, the relationship with that child. That’s what you want.

Jim: It’s definitely more important than the rules. I know that sounds counter-intuitive because we, as Christians, particularly, and we want to live by the rules. We’re called to live by these righteous standards. But you know what? God is a god of relationship-

Cynthia: That’s right.

Jim: … first and foremost. And if you’re struggling with the rules, He wants to walk alongside you to improve that area of your life. If we’re really honest with ourselves, even as adults, even as parents, that’s true. And so how do we mirror that to our children, so that they know they are unconditionally love, that there’s expectations there, but that fundamentally, my relationship to you as your mother, your father is-

Cynthia: That’s right.

Jim: … core. Uh, let’s end with that, Cynthia. What are… what are your thoughts about that?

Cynthia: Well, you know, Tim Kimmel wrote a book about why Christian kids rebel.

John: Mm-hmm.

Cynthia: And, and, you know, I have a- a- one-… my strong-willed son who’s kind of rebelling a little bit in some ways now too and what’s going to bring him back is not going to be the sermons and not going to be the lectures and not going to be the reminders of what sin is and what sin isn’t. It’s… What keeps him close to me is the relationship that we’ve built. And, and it’s very difficult sometimes as a Christian parent ’cause your heart just aches that this child is making these mistakes, but when you think about what Christ does for us, I serve Him because of the relationship. I don’t serve Him because of the hammer and because of the internal damnation if I don’t. Now, that’s a bonus that I don’t get that, don’t get me wrong. But, but the thing that draws me and if you really think about what’s going to draw them to the church, what’s going to draw them to Christ and to the foot of the cross, it’s not going to be a bony finger, it’s going to be the love, and the consistency, and the unconditional relationship that we give them.

Jim: In fact, in Romans 2:4, it says: “It’s God’s kindness that leads one to repentance.”

Cynthia: That’s right.

Jim: And you can put the parent in there as well.

Cynthia: And one-

Jim: It’s a parent’s kindness that leads a child to repentance.

Cynthia: Right. Right. And one word of encouragement to parents of strong-willed, rebellious kids, you know, God’s the perfect Father, but He still has wayward children.

Jim: (laughs). Well, Cynthia Tobias, that is a good place to end. Your book, You Can’t Make Me (But I Can Be Persuaded), love the title. Thank you for being with us on-

Cynthia: No, it was great.

Jim: … Focus on the Family.

Cynthia: Thank you.

John: You know, every time I hear Cynthia Tobias on Focus on the Family, I’m reminded of some of the nuance involved with parenting a strong-willed child and she really knows how to unpack and simplify those concepts she shared.

Jim: I agree, John. Cynthia has such great wisdom and depth and I think a lot of that comes from her having been one of those strong-willed children herself. She knows how they think-

John: Yeah.

Jim: … ’cause she is one.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And that’s why we wanted to come back to this program because I know it’s going to help parents who are struggling in this particular area. And we want to be there for you to get practical resources into your hands so you can apply them in your home. And I want to say thanks to those of you who have supported Focus to give that kind of hope to families.

John: Yeah, and your monthly pledge helps us to do that on an ongoing basis, so we really appreciate that. Donate as you can and if you’re not able to make a pledge right now, uh, please consider a one-time gift of any amount. Either way, we’ll say thank you for joining the support team by sending a copy of Cynthia’s book, You Can’t Make Me (But I Can Be Persuaded). Donate today when you call 800, the letter, A, and the word FAMILY. 800-232-6459. Or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.

The post Practical Advice for Parenting Strong-Willed Children (Part 2 of 2) appeared first on Focus on the Family.

John Fuller: Well, that’s a humorous insight, and that’s from a self-proclaimed strong-willed child, now adult, Cynthia Tobias, and she’s with us to share her personal insights to help you with your headstrong kids. This is Focus on the Family. I’m John Fuller, and your host is Focus president and author Jim Daly.

Jim Daly: Yeah, I’m sure many of you, uh, can relate to what Cynthia shared there. It seems like every family has at least one strong-willed child, and I know we do. We’ve only got two, so I’m not gonna say who it is, but, uh, uh, today we want to return to this popular program because Cynthia has such helpful insights on raising and disciplining strong-willed children. Uh, she’s an expert, and last time this aired, a mom named Amy from Kansas sent us a note, and, uh, I want to read that whole comment, because it perfectly describes what we’re about to hear. She wrote: “Our first child is so strong-willed, and we’re going crazy. I heard your program with Cynthia Tobias, and I was sure that you had hidden cameras in our home.” Boy, that sounds like many of us, huh? “You described our child and parenting challenges. This morning, we had a situation and I asked, do you want us to be disappointed in your work? And wow, it worked. He answered calmly and politely, no. And that was it. No argument back, no blaming someone else. Wow. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much for airing this. I can’t tell you how many tears I’ve shed, how much of my voice I’ve lost, and how much sleep I’ve missed just trying to make any progress to no avail. It’s encouraging to know that we are not the only parents with a child like this.”

John: Uh, she’s not.

Jim: Yeah.

John: And this is wonderful affirmation for what Cynthia shared and the kind of practical advice we have for folks today.

Jim: Well, and John, that’s what we’re trying to do with the broadcast each and every day, uh, to provide you some hope, no matter what it is, and this one’s about strong-willed children. So, if you’re the grandparent or the parent of that child, um, listen in. You’re going to enjoy this, and share with others, uh, through the download app and other ways that we can do that.

John: Yeah, let’s go ahead and listen now to the conversation with Cynthia Tobias on today’s Focus on the Family.

Jim: Cynthia, it is great to have you back here at Focus on the Family.

Cynthia: Oh, it’s always great to be here. Thank you so much.

Jim: Now, Cynthia, you used to be, this is what I love about you. You used to be both a teacher and then you were in law enforcement.

Cynthia: That’s right.

Jim: I mean, what a combo, uh, career that must have been.

Cynthia: And it has more in common than you think, doesn’t it?

Jim: It really does equip you. Yeah, I mean, teacher, cop. I mean, kids must love that.

Cynthia: They did, you, ’cause you can always get ’em back with a good cop story. You can always get the attention back.

Jim: Yeah, I bet.

Cynthia: I get a lot of respect in the classroom.

Jim: And you’ve done so much. You’ve written so many books, and you really do have a heart for these strong-willed kids, because you were one, weren’t you?

Cynthia: Yes, I, I’m, I am one, ’cause, um, you can ask my husband.

John: You don’t outgrow it?

Cynthia: I don’t outgrow it. Um, I have one, because my mother prayed that would be so, and, um, and then I’ve talked to so many thousands of them over the past couple decades and it’s just, it’s so rewarding to be able to have that, not only have that in common, but to have them share with me, “Yeah, this is me. Boy, I could have written this book. This is truly how I think.”

Jim: Hmm. Oh.

Cynthia: And, um, that’s good.

Jim: Let’s mention that book, because it is a great book for parents who are dealing with this, and even parents who don’t know if they are or they are or they are not dealing with a strong-willed child.

Cynthia: Right.

Jim: The title is You Can’t Make Me (But I Can Be Persuaded).

Cynthia: That’s right.

Jim: I love that title. Uh, tell us the attributes of a strong-willed child. Where is a parent, how do we start discerning a strong-willed child’s behavior?

Cynthia: Well, you can really probably from the womb, the mothers. Ha, I certainly could from the beginning. Um, but, uh, about 18 months or so. Uh, uh, by 18 months, you can really see some patterns emerging, and, and I, it’s not negative. A strong will in and of itself is very positive, and you want all your kids to have a certain amount of strong will. But how you guide it, how you direct it, you see strong convictions, um, you see determination, you see, um, where they’re not easily daunted, not easily discouraged, doesn’t necessarily take no for an answer. You can tell me it’s impossible to do, but all I think is, “You mean it’s never been done yet.”

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Now, when do those attributes start appearing? At one, two, three?

Cynthia: I think even in infancy, uh, personally, having been a mom of twins especially.

Jim: So you can see it.

Cynthia: I could see. I mean, I felt it, ’cause I had twins. I had one boy in one place and one in the other, and even before they were born, I saw it.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Cynthia: Isn’t that, it, and that was strange, but especially in toddlerhood, and it really shows up in the, they, what we call them the terrible twos, but they’re really kind of the turbulent twos. Um, but all through their life, and I, it depends, again, how much it shows up depends on the kind of parenting style and whether or not the strong-willed child has an opportunity to exhibit those traits in a positive way. But all through your life, and you never, ever outgrow it. But some of the most successful people in the world have a really good, strong dose of strong will. It’s just, when you’re a parent and your strong-willed child is young, they have to practice on you. ‘Cause, I mean, when you think about, who else do you want ’em to practice on, right?

Jim: That’s right.

Cynthia: You have the budding young attorneys and politicians and preachers and salespeople, and if we can just guide it and direct it in the right way, God has given us a great compliment to be a parent of a strong-willed child.

Jim: I can, I remember, uh, one of the incidences with my strong-willed child. Uh, Jean was having a tea for the ladies and she had put out all these chocolates on the table, and several were missing by the time the tea came around, and she said to Trent, I, uh, just outed him.

John: The, the unnamed strong-willed child.

Jim: The unnamed strong-willed child. But she said to Trent, uh, “Did you eat all these chocolates?” And he said, “No.” And she said, “Well, where, why are all these chocolates missing?” And he said, “I didn’t eat all of them, I ate some of them.”

Cynthia: That’s right.

Jim: That’s what a strong-willed child will say, right?

Cynthia: That’s right, exactly.

Jim: It’s the letter of the law.

Cynthia: Right, ’cause we can always find just a little way to, to go around something. My son did the same thing when they were toddlers in the backseat. I heard, I heard Mike, the strong-willed one, slap his brother Robert on the leg, and I said, “Michael, don’t hit your brother.” He goes, “I didn’t hit my brother.” And I said, “I just heard you hit him as hard as you could.” And he goes, “I didn’t hit him as hard as I could. I could have hit him a lot harder than that.” It’s the same kind of thing.

Jim: So he had to be very, very accurate.

Cynthia: That’s right, how you word it.

Jim: Uh, we, we’ve talked about the positive attributes. I mean, these kids can have determination, they have grit, they really want to get it done. Uh, they can be extremely loyal. Uh, yet, at the same time, there are some downsides. Let’s touch on those. Uh, we’ve touched on a bit of that, but let’s talk a bit about that downside, the negative aspects of strong-willed children.

Cynthia: You know, when it goes sideways, um, and it goes sideways most quickly when there’s a bony finger pointed in my face.

Jim: Uh-huh.

Cynthia: Or when someone, uh, you know, is, it sounds like an edict or an order, then I tend to, as a strong-willed child, react with rebellion, with a little bit of defiance, with no, you can’t make me, and I don’t want to do it, and I don’t have to if I don’t want to. Um, so then I can become a, a real drain on the family, for one thing, ’cause it takes all your energy just to try to get me to obey. And, uh, what happens with parents a lot of times, when I don’t obey the first time, then they just keep drilling in and drilling and drilling and drilling, and pretty soon, they’re the ones with high blood pressure, headaches, all kinds of problems, and I’m the strong-willed kid going, whatever. You know?

John: So, you’re winning.

Cynthia: I’m winning. Uh, absolutely, because we talk about those who anger you, control you. And I learned that at a very early age.

Jim: Well, talk about that, because, uh, it, for the parent who understandably gets angry when this child is not doing what you’ve asked them to do, even politely, you know?

Cynthia: Right.

Jim: As Christian parents who want to do this well, so we’ll say, “Hey, little Johnny, can you put your shoes and socks away?” And you get nothing, or you get no. Come on, let’s get that done now. And then before too long, would you put those socks away now?

Cynthia: Yeah.

Jim: And that child really digs in at that point.

Cynthia: Yes, but the key to all of it, and, and I’ve talked to thousands, and everybody tells me we all agree, they key to it is how you ask us, how you talk to us. We wouldn’t respect you if you seemed to be asking permission, um, because you’re the parent. We know you’re the parent, and I’m comfortable with that authority, believe it or not. And every strong-willed child, I’ve even talked to kids that are in jail, and they’re fine with authority. It’s just how it’s communicated. So, if you come across as kind of weak and tenuous and scared of me, I’m not gonna obey you. Or if you come across with the, the typical positional authority, which is listen, you better do what I tell you to do because I’m your dad, or I’m your mom.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Cynthia: And you better do it now. Then, that has the opposite effect, too. It’s an authority that says, look, I need you to put your soc-, uh, shoes and socks on now, okay? And, and I say no. What’s the problem? Well, I just don’t know which socks I’m gonna wear. Well, okay. Let’s choose them and then let’s get them on, okay? Okay. Usually, 80% of the time, that conflict is just because I wanted to have just a little bit of control over myself. I, I don’t need to control you. I just can’t let you take all control away from me, which is what you do if you say, “This is how it’s gonna be.” Period, end of discussion.

Jim: Here’s another example that I love. There’s a, actually, a commercial on television I caught the other day. It’s a little boy that sits down at the table, and I don’t even know what the product’s for, but this little boy, the, the byline is, “Eat your vegetables or you won’t leave the table.”

Cynthia: Yeah.

Jim: And the next scene, you see him as an old man.

Cynthia: The old man.

Jim: With a long gray beard.

Cynthia: Right.

Jim: Like, that’s a strong-willed child.

Cynthia: That’s right. I’ll stay here as long as I need to stay.

Jim: But that, that’s one that parents really struggle with. You’ve got to eat that before you leave the table. Is that a good declaration of war?

Cynthia: You know, almost anything that in-, entails the threat, the ultimatum. Look, if you don’t clean that room, there’s not gonna be any ice cream for you. It, you better get your homework done or you’re not do-. Anytime it’s phrased that way, um, you ha-, you just have to remember that as a strong-willed kid, we all know that there is pain for gain, right? We know there’s a price to pay. I expect to pay the price. It would be nice if I didn’t have to, but I expect to pay that ticket and pay that price. In my mind, as a strong-willed child, it all depends on how much I’m willing to pay. How long will I be grounded? Six weeks or less? Could be worth it. Right? Um, how hard will I be spanked if I get up on that table where I’m not supposed to go? ‘Cause it can’t last that long. It can’t be that hard. You’re probably not gonna kill me, right? So, if I’m thinking like that as the strong-willed child, this positional authority parent is thinking they’re gonna find something that, if it’s bad enough, will force me to do it, and I’m here to tell you it isn’t that way. It, there is no hammer that’s gonna force me to do it, because I can die, figuratively at least, before I’ll do it.

John: Yeah. Cynthia, you said something a moment ago that I am not able to just kind of skim past. I, I’m stuck here, and I’ve heard you on Focus on the Family. W-, I’ve read your books. We’ve talked before. Uh, this is all rooted in control for that child. You said it, as a strong-willed child, you didn’t want to give up all control over your own destiny, if you will.

Cynthia: That’s right.

John: I never realized that.

Cynthia: And, and in the book, this new revised edition is great ’cause we’ve got four new chapters and strong-willed child emergency kit and stuff, and one of the things that we give in here, the three critical truths about how the strong-willed mind works. And I’ve done this for years now, years and years, and I’ve never had anybody disagree with me. But the first critical truth is it’s not authority, it’s how it’s communicated. And the second critical truth is I don’t need to control you, I just can’t let you take all control away from me. I need you to share it with me. In other words, saying, “Look, where do you want to take your nap today?” In other words, there will be a nap. I will let you, you know. And I say, well, I want to take it out on the front yard, and you say, nice try, can’t do that. Where, what are your other choices? But where you can kind of give me a little bit of sway. I don’t need a lot. I just need for you to respect me the way you want me to respect you. And if you don’t model the respect that you want from me, it’s very difficult, if not impossible, for me to give the respect to you.

Jim: In fact, Cynthia, there’s something you raise in the book. “The okay question.” I love that, which, try to end your comments with, “Okay?”

Cynthia: Right.

Jim: Which conveys control back to that strong-willed child.

Cynthia: Yeah.

Jim: Will you go to bed now? Okay?

Cynthia: Yeah.

Jim: That kind of thing.

Cynthia: And, but, and here’s the key to that, and, and every strong-willed child that listens to me will know this is true. It’s all in how you say the okay, ’cause it is a magic word but you have to say it in a certain way. In other words, you wouldn’t say to your child, “Oh, I just need you to do this for me sweetheart, okay?” ‘Cause then, to me, I’m thinking weakness, tentative, I have to destroy you, I have to fight my urge to destroy you. But if you say it calm and firm, and you say it with the tone that says, look, I know you could die if you want to, I’m hoping you don’t choose to, need you to put your seatbelt on, okay? No, uh. My response is no. Then you say, “Wh-, why not?”

Jim: Hmm.

Cynthia: But, it’s too tight. I don’t like it. But, let’s loosen it a little and then put it on, okay?

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Cynthia: Okay. That’s when, eight out of 10 times, I come back. I just need a little bit. That’s my little tiny bit of control, see? Just a tiny, tiny bit. Instead of saying, “Get in the van, we are late.” If you say, “Hey, you ready to g-, you about ready to go?” And I say, “Oh, oh, yeah, I’m gonna go get a drink and I’ll be right there.” I mean, parents are amazed at how often they get cooperation if they’ll just stop for a minute and think about how they’re about to phrase this, and asking questions does not mean you’re asking for permission. You are not asking for your kid’s permission to obey. That’s clear. Your authority is, it, intact, and your accountability’s intact. But the way you say it, the respect that you give me, even as a very young child, let alone a teenager, that says, in essence, tells me you always have a choice.

Jim: Hmm.

John: Well, you’re listening to the wisdom of, uh, Cynthia Tobias on today’s Focus on the Family, hosted by Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, and, uh, the foundational book for our conversation is, You Can’t Make Me (But I Can Be Persuaded). And, uh, Cynthia, a moment or two ago, you mentioned three things going on in the minds of a strong-willed child. We heard two. Why don’t you go ahead and recap the first two and give us the third as well?

Cynthia: Right. These are three critical truths to how the strong-willed mind thinks and works. The first one was it’s not authority we have trouble with, it’s how you communicate it. The second one, I don’t need to control you, I just can’t let you take all control away from me. And the third one, which is really crucial, is the quality of the relationship with that strong-willed child will directly determine the effectiveness of your techniques. In other words, if there is a positive relationship that I want to preserve as a strong-willed kid, then I will work with you, and you’ve got leverage with me. But if there’s no relationship I care about, there’s no real upside, you’re always looking for the worst anyway and I know that you think I’m gonna cause trouble, so the next thing’s gonna be trouble, too, then really, you have no leverage, ’cause there’s no upside for me to keep a relationship together.

Jim: Mm-hmm. Uh, Cynthia, I think that’s a critical point, and, uh, the relationship, when you look at, uh, parents that are struggling in the teen years with their kids, typically, this is the core problem. Uh, there’s so little relationship that the teen is just going his or her own direction, and the parent, who wants more control, is actually hopeless, ’cause they have absolutely no control.

Cynthia: Right.

Jim: And that’s a very dangerous moment in the relationship, uh, with your child. How does a parent build that relationship if they’re saying right now, oh, no, I’ve blown it? What can they do to start repairing that?

Cynthia: Well, you know, sometimes it’s as simple as just being honest with me. It’s, you know, being able to say, “Wait, I think I need a do-over. What I really meant to say was, and maybe this didn’t come out right, but here’s what I’m really going for.” If you’ll just be honest with me, I, I call it my glass door theory, right? If your life is a glass door, I can see right through you. So, you know, your stubborn insistence that I can’t know what’s going on is only gonna make me not trust you more. So, just be honest with me. Say, “Man, sometimes I think you came from a different planet. I, I need help here. How, what’s gonna work with you? What do you need me to do?” And it catches me off guard, as a, especially as a strong-willed kid. Teenager, I’m thinking, wow. I mean, my parents aren’t thinking that they’re perfect and that, thinking. They’re actually asking me what works. Now, they’re not asking my permission, and they’re not saying you can do whatever you want, but they’re saying, “You know what’s really important to me is this, and, and here’s what I’m trying to establish. I’m not sure I’m going about it the right way, but I know I’m looking for the right end. Can you help me figure out how to get there?” And, and then the kid’s going, “Huh.” I mean, then I’ll just, sometimes I’ll just do it your way, just because you were honest with me, and just because you treated me well. It’s, it builds a relationship where I care about you, ’cause I sense that you care about me. You care what I think about you. You care about the relationship. I mean, let’s face it. As strong-willed kids, you know, we, we walk into a room, people aren’t always that happy to see us come in, ’cause, ’cause our reputation precedes us, right? And sometimes as parents, we just have to practice smiling more at that kid, even when I don’t feel like it.

Jim: Yeah.

Cynthia: I’m not that happy to see you, but if I can just put a smile on my face and say something good to you, as a strong-willed kid, wow. Wow, it’s great to see you here today. I’m, you know, I don’t know if I’ve told you lately, but I feel really privileged that God trusted me with a kid like you. You’ve got the most incredible strengths. Sometimes they drive me crazy, but I appreciate you.

Jim: They really do need encouragement.

Cynthia: They do.

Jim: And you can find the, the, the simplest ways to do that. Uh, the other day, this is hilarious. We had a balloon get caught in our ceiling fan probably three years ago, and we haven’t used the ceiling fan for three years because it’s 20 feet high. It’s the highest point and it’s two stories up in our living room. And so, I mean, just the other day, I thought, I saw a ladder here at Focus. I thought, “I’m gonna take that home.” Because it looked big enough. But lo and behold, it was short.

John: Oh, man.

Jim: It was still a 10-foot ladder, but even at 6’2″, it wasn’t enough. And I said to, to Trent, who is really good at problem-solving, I said, “What would you do?” He lit up when I sa-, said, you know, you’re really good at solving problems. What would you do? ‘Cause I’m out of answers.

Cynthia: That’s right.

Jim: And he, he got right to it. Well, we could put blocks under the ladder, we could do all this stuff. But you can find ways to encourage your strong-willed children.

Cynthia: And, and by the way, that’s one of the favorite things that came up over and over with strong-willed kids I talked to. We would much rather have compelling problems to solve than just a list of chores to do, so you did exactly the right thing, intuitively as a parent, saying, you know, wow, this is my issue. This is what I have to solve here, instead of saying this is what you need to do and it needs to be done now. Make it a compelling problem that I can help you solve and the chances are good you’ll have my cooperation.

Jim: Cynthia, for a parent to switch that gear, because here you are, a mom and you’re doing the diapers, and then they’re eating solid food, and now you’re getting him ready for kindergarten. You, you really got to flip a switch to parent them slightly differently, don’t you? ‘Cause doing the chores is what I need you to do. Take out the trash, help with the dishes. But to give them a problem to solve, it, you got to be thinking like a teacher almost.

Cynthia: Right. And, you know, one of the things mentioned at the back of the book is you don’t have to do all this at once. You don’t have to change everything at once. You know, maybe start with, with one area that’s really a problem, and just work on it for a little bit, and, and practice a little. And, and you know, use your strong-willed friends or may even spouse as resources. There’s, it’s great to go up to a strong-willed adult that you know and say, you know, I got a kid a lot like you. I need a little advice here.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Cynthia: And what’s great, and what I loved about doing wi-, the book is just talking to other strong-willed minds that just either verified or expanded and said, you know what really worked for me was, and that’d be great.

John: Mm-hmm. Uh, I hear you saying something, Cynthia, that I don’t believe I got when I was a new parent, and, and Jim, I don’t know if you caught it or not. I thought it was my job to mold my child, and, um, you’re saying it’s, it’s a lot of work, and Jim, you’ve made this point already. It’s a lot of work to shift your parenting style to adapt to the kid. And for a long time, I was going off that positional authority you’re talking about, and I’m in my child’s face saying, “Hey, you got to get this done.” And she’s thinking, why? And for so long, I was refusing to change my parenting approach. There’s great wisdom in what you’re saying. I want to make sure that, that I’m understanding that properly, though. You’re not saying acquiesce.

Cynthia: Right.

John: You’re just saying see what your child’s bent and gifting is and adapt?

Cynthia: Right, and if you look at Proverbs 22:6 that talks about train up a child in the way he should go, right? Then we’re thinking that means we tell them what to do. But if you really think about it, the greatest thing we can do for our kids is to train them to be adults, and by doing that, we want to shift some responsibility for learning to them, shift some responsibility for behavior, and the younger they are, the lower the price tags are, right? ‘Cause by the time they get to be 16 or 17 or when they graduate, if we haven’t let them make decisions and let them make mistakes and figure out tuition for lessons, then we are not doing them a service. We haven’t trained them. We haven’t trained them to figure out what their strengths are or how to use them. We’ve just trained them to listen to what we tell them to do and do it, and they’re about to walk out of our home, and now what?

John: Hmm.

Cynthia: So, I really think that the training comes in for us as parents. We’re so much wiser if we help them figure out as we go. This is why this has to happen. Why do I have to do stupid, dumb, boring homework? Well.

Jim: Yeah, that comes up quite often.

Cynthia: It, it comes up, yeah.

John: I’ve never heard it in my home. I don’t know.

Cynthia: And you, and then you say, well, why, you know, what do you, what do you think the reason would be? ‘Cause the teacher just wants to torture me. It’s possible, but, you know, do you think it’s possible to get a good grade without doing the homework? And you know, have them think about what it is and say there are times when it is just hoops that you have to jump through. So, let’s think about what would help you do the homework when you’re really bored. ‘Cause they need to think, as kids, uh, what do I need if I’m bored? What happens? What do I need to do if I don’t feel like doing things I don’t want to do? I can’t just tell you as a parent. I can, but it doesn’t help you. You need to be thinking about this, so that later when you are growing up, you can think, wow, how am I gonna get myself motivated to, to do it when my mom’s not here to say do it?

Jim: Uh, Cynthia, one of the difficulties is we live in this natural world. I mean, for both moms and dads, there’s a breaking point for you, and there’s a lot of tension in a strong-willed child home, because that child is constantly testing those boundaries, constantly coming after you to be in control, or at least gain some control, and you’re fighting that, and if your personality bent is toward higher control, you’ve got this tremendous conflict going on. Uh, at some point, you’re gonna have a meltdown. What should a, a parent do, a mom or dad? What advice do you have for them when that moment hits, and that natural human emotion is coming up and you begin to act like the child and not the parent, what do you do?

Cynthia: Well, you, you know, first of all, you, if you have a relationship, you’re in good shape, ’cause if there’s a relationship that we have together as parent and child, then I’m actually, as a strong-willed kid, I’ll give you grace. There’ll be times when you’ll just snap at me, or point your bony finger at me, and it’ll be okay, because I know you don’t always do that, and I know you’re under a lot of stress. So, I actually give you grace, and you can even, if you can keep a sense of humor, if you can say, “Are you trying to get in trouble?” And I go, “No, is that, is that what I’m doing?” Oh, yeah.

Jim: Yeah, maybe.

Cynthia: That’s where you’re headed. You know? And, so now you’re smiling and I’ve got this opportunity you just gave me for this fire escape, to back off. So, sometimes just, you know, lightening up a little. But we talk about, in chapter seven, we talk about the strong-willed child emergency kit, and basically, what that emergency kit is that, you know, the three steps. Number one, if you’re in the middle of a meltdown, you need to back off, because the further you press in with me, it’s not gonna get any better, because you’re already pointing your finger at me, and if you think by pressing in and saying it louder and slower is gonna make it better, you’re mistaken, ’cause I’ve already shut down. I’ve al-, the wall’s already gone up, so you can yell all you want. We’re done. And, and you as a parent, you’re going crazy because you’ve got more to say, but I don’t want to listen. I’m not listening ’cause you’re yelling.

Jim: Hmm. So, back off.

Cynthia: Back off. Get your perspective. Just walk away and say, you know what? I, I just needed a, a few minutes here to cool off before I say something I regret, and, or, you know, like one mom, she said, I, sometimes I’ll say, “I’m gonna pretend you didn’t just say that.” And walk away. Because then, get the perspective, right? And, and then, number two, decide what, what’s the point? What am I trying to achieve here? Okay, think for a second. What am I trying to do? ‘Cause as a parent, I’m just getting carried away ’cause I wanted it done my way, and I’m in a hurry, and for heaven’s sake, I don’t have time to think about how this kid thinks. So, just think about, look, and, and back off and say, maybe, a do-over. Look, I just need this to be done. Do you have another idea on how to do it? Um, and then the third thing is the honesty thing. Just, and again, saying, “This isn’t working. I’m irritated more than I can tell you, and I love you, and I don’t want to yell at you. This isn’t working.”

Jim: And that can be so hard. Cynthia, we have run out of time, and we, I, let’s come right back next time, if you can stick with us.

Cynthia: Absolutely.

Jim: And let’s pick up on the honesty part, because I think that’s very difficult for parents, to humble themselves and be honest with their kids. Can you do that?

Cynthia: Absolutely.

Jim: All right, let’s do it. Your book, You Can’t Make Me (But I Can Be Persuaded), Cynthia Tobias, the strong-willed child. Thank you for being with us.

Cynthia: My pleasure.

John: Well, we do hope you’re gonna be joining us next time for help with parenting your strong-willed child, and in the meantime, we have Cynthia’s book for you. Uh, just get in touch and ask for, You Can’t Make Me (But I Can Be Persuaded). It is a terrific read, offers some great insights into your strong-willed child, and Cynthia has some really positive ways to motivate your child and how to share control without compromising your authority.

Jim: And when you get the book through us, uh, those dollars go to support the ministry of Focus on the Family, and with a gift of any amount to stand with us and support families, we’ll send you a copy of Cynthia’s book as our way of saying thank you.

John: Yeah. We’d be grateful if you can support us monthly, and we always appreciate those who help to keep Focus on the Family going in that monthly way, to help parents with these broadcasts, uh, counseling, and so much more. So please, make that monthly pledge, and then we’ll send you, uh, Cynthia’s book, and you can do so when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Plan to join us next time as we have Cynthia Tobias back and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.

The post Practical Advice for Parenting Strong-Willed Children (Part 1 of 2) appeared first on Focus on the Family.

Kristan Hawkins: When I’m speaking to young women, I’ll ask them, “Why are you falling for these antiquated lies of the abortion industry? You know you’re strong enough.” Abortion is the opposite of empowerment to young women.

End of Preview

John Fuller: That’s Kristan Hawkins. She’s our guest today on Focus on the Family and she’s the Head of Students for Life, a pro-life organization working primarily on college campuses. And Kristan has some great insights for us today about protecting women and their pre-born children from abortion. Your host is Focus president and author, Jim Daly, and I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: John, this issue of abortion is so close to my heart and I’m so grateful that Focus for many, many years, 40-plus years defending the innocent life of a pre-born baby, and helping the moms. Um, as Christians, we’re called to protect the vulnerable around us and some of the most vulnerable people we’re ever going to encounter are pre-born children-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and their mothers. And I’m so grateful that we’ve helped so many in that way. We have done that together, by the way. The donors and- and Focus. And, uh, y- the reality is, abortion harms, uh, both mom and baby. And there’s so much we can do to support the pro-life movement. So, part of this program is just getting you up to speed on what’s happening on the front lines from one of the most, uh, articulate, uh, fighters for the pro-life position. And Kristan is out there on college campuses, like Berkeley, and Dartmouth, and Yale, and Harvard. Think of that discussion.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And we’re gonna hear more from her shortly.

John: Yeah. And I mentioned she’s the President of Students for Life. And, uh, Kristan is married to Jonathan and they have four children.

Jim: Kristan, welcome to Focus on the Family.

Kristan: Thanks for having me. It’s good to see you again.

Jim: It’s good to have you here too. And I always admire from a distance what you’re doing and it’s good to finally have you here on Focus on the Family.

Kristan: It’s great to be here. You know, Focus, uh, is so critical for, um, what we do. And I just, I want to thank you all for what you guys do. I remember as a little, uh, little girl sitting at church, I would get those-

Jim: (laughs).

Kristan: … Focus on the Family bulletin church inserts.

Jim: Oh, right.

Kristan: And that was really the, kind of the first time abortion … I learned about abortion was through those church-

John: Mm-hmm.

Kristan: … bulletin inserts. So, I don’t know if y’all ke- are still doing it-

Jim: We’re still doing it-

Kristan: But-

Jim: … with Tindale. Yeah, it’s good.

Kristan: … but, I mean, just thank you for that.

Jim: Yeah.

Kristan: Because y- what you mentioned earlier, you all have been doing this for 40-plus years. And the- the legacy you guys have had is spread out-

Jim: Wow, that’s very, very kind.

Kristan: … across America.

Jim: Well, Kristan, let’s start with the obvious question. What got you going to be-

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … an advocate, to be a really strong voice for the pro-life movement? What was the occurrence-

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … that you kind of went, “Wow, I got to do something?”

Kristan: I think everyone has those kind of stories, those of us that have committed our lives to the pro-life movement. For me, um, it was a simple ask in my life, where a woman that I went to church with was a part-time accountant at a pregnancy resource center. I was looking to graduate high school early. I decided to graduate school a year early. And so, I had to, um, get all of my volunteer hours in within one summer to graduate with honors. And, uh, so I just put out a call at church that, “Kristan’s available for slave labor all summer.”

Jim: (laughs).

Kristan: “Whatever you need, I have to fill up all of these volunteer hours.” And she came up to me and said, “You know, I- I work at this women’s center. Do you want to come and intern for me at the women’s center?” And I had … I would love to be able to say today that I knew exactly what I was getting myself into, uh, that I knew, you know, really fully the issue of abortion and the, uh, the violence of abortion. But I- I didn’t really know that much. Um, I- I largely felt that I was pro-life, um-

Jim: Right.

Kristan: … I grew up in a church. We didn’t talk about much. But as I mentioned, we had those bulletin inserts, so I-

Jim: (laughs).

Kristan: … I knew a little bit. But, you know, I was kind of one of those people of, “Yes, I’m against abortion, but in this case, or maybe in this case.” Um, and so, when I walked into that pregnancy center in Steubenville, Ohio, the- the women there were just so excited to have me there, because I was the youngest volunteer by a couple of decades. And they just poured into me for an entire summer, uh, and really trained me in how to counsel some of the women who were coming into the clinic, uh, my age, even younger. Um, yes, I did the- the menial intern task of reorganizing the supply room and-

Jim: (laughs).

Kristan: … teaching everyone how to use the-

Jim: And you probably did a really good job.

Kristan: … the computer. Yes. But, uh-

Jim: They were going, “Wow, she’s good.”

Kristan: (laughs). Yeah, yeah. Um, but no, it was, it … For me, I- I remember distinctly walking out of that pregnancy center the first day, you know, with the thought in my head of, “Why doesn’t anyone talk about this?”

Jim: Yeah.

Kristan: Abortions happening thousands of times in a day and no one talks about this.

Jim: Well, and I do want to make a shameless plug for our internship program that we have at Focus (laughs).

John: Oh, yeah.

Kristan: There you go.

Jim: So, if you are a college, uh, person and want to spend a summer with us, get a hold of us. And moms, dads, you can let your adult children know about that.

Kristan: There you go.

Jim: But in that context, um, you did get an opportunity to begin counseling.

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And that really sparked you, I think, right? What- what-

Kristan: It did.

Jim: … happened and how old were you then? And pretty courageous, because your- your youthfulness, that somebody would of said, “Well, let’s put you in the counseling role.”

Kristan: Yeah.

Jim: Because that’s heavy.

Kristan: Yeah, that’s not something normally you would see pregnancy centers do. I- I think Sharon, the Director of the center probably saw something in me. And I would sit in with her for counseling sessions. And then by the end of the summer, I was able to do some of them by myself. Um, I was 15 goin-, you know-

Jim: Wow.

Kristan: … nearly 16. Um, and it was hard, because I, you know, I grew up in pretty sheltered, you know, stable family. A great family. Uh, there was no, um, financial poverty, no spiritual poverty. Uh, and then, to meet some of these women who came into the center, many of them had already had abortions in their life.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Kristan: They’re coming for a pregnancy test. Sometimes I knew they we-, you know … I’d say, “You’re not … Do you really think you’re pregnant? Or … ” She was coming there because she wanted to talk to somebody, that she needed some diapers-

Jim: She was lonely.

Kristan: … for her two year old. Her boyfriend was abusing her. And just, hearing these stories-

Jim: Yeah.

Kristan: … and realizing that abortion isn’t this great solution for any of these women, n- no matter how terrible their circumstances are. It’s- it’s this Band-Aid. And in- in a lot of ways, it let the abuse continue on in her life.

Jim: Yeah. And in that regard, I mean, uh, I think statistics show when they do the post-survey work-

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … that women are far worse off-

Kristan: Right.

Jim: … after abortion emotionally, spiritually in every way. So, that’s why you are there. Uh, Students for Life, it’s about 18 years old now. So, it’s b- becoming an adult (laughs).

Kristan: Yes. We can vote apparently now.

Jim: But … It can vote, that’s about it. Uh, but in that context, I mean, that’s a long time going after this.

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Uh, what have you seen in that movement? You’re going after students, why?

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Why is it important to be on these college campuses where there’s, you know, pretty much monolithic thinking about the abortion issue?

Kristan: Scary.

Jim: Which is, “Every woman should have the right to terminate the life of their baby.”

Kristan: Yeah.

Jim: Um, that’s a hostile environment to get into.

Kristan: Yeah, yeah.

Jim: What’s it like?

Kristan: Yeah. I don’t mind hostile environments, I actually enjoy them. I find I thrive in those environments. So, I-

Jim: And what’s the mission-

Kristan: Yeah.

Jim: … of Students for Life?

Kristan: I mean, I think when you look at the mission of Students for Life, y- you look at, back at the history of social reform movements in our country. And you know, um, in order to have great cultural change take effect, you have to win over a generation of young people. Um, that is what the left has done so brilliantly. I mean, today, we’ve seen the chickens come home to roost on our college campuses. And this wasn’t just like two years ago. People ch- tend to think like, “Oh, it’s gotten really bad since COVID.” No, this is what they’ve been teaching our young people for decades in schools and now they’re in college and now they’re adults. Uh, no wonder why they’re confused about their gender, or think that they have no value or purpose in life, because you’ve told them that, right? For two decades whi- while they were in school. And so, I know, and I think about my life and the time I spend away from my four kids and my husband and, you know, why am I doing this work and getting on these planes and- and going to these crazy places where people don’t want me, right? Um, I know that there’s nothing greater that I can do to build this generation up. These young people who they are the ones having the conversations on campuses with the women who are most targeted by the abortion industry. They’re saving lives. They’re helping moms and families, uh, find success. But then these are the ones also leading the pro-life movement. Now we have, you know, tens of thousands of graduates at Students for Life who are now running their own pregnancy centers, starting their own maternity homes, uh, you know, working for members of Congress. They are literally everywhere. They’re running for office. They’re being elected to office. This is the generation that’s going to, uh, hopefully achieve the full mission of the pro-life movement, which wasn’t just reverse Roe v. Wade.

Jim: Right.

Kristan: Um, it’s to end abortion, to make it unthinkable and unavailable. That’s really going to be this generation’s legacy.

Jim: Man, may it be so. That’s, uh, what we have all worked for-

Kristan: Yeah.

Jim: … for so long.

Kristan: That’s what we’re praying for.

Jim: Um, let’s get down to some practical storytelling. Um, you’re there helping students in very practical ways.

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You’re lecturing and talking and debating and doing Q&As at, again, Berkeley, and Dartmouth-

Kristan: Doing TikToks.

Jim: Yeah. I mean, it’s, uh … And I’ve seen many of those and you do a great job. Tell us about that component, what you practically do to help these female students in their point of need?

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And one of the things that comes out in the data, I didn’t mention it a moment ago, but if a w- woman has just one person-

Kristan: That’s right.

Jim: … that says-

Kristan: That’s right.

Jim: … “I will help you through this,” they’re far more likely to have the child instead of being alone. If they’re alone, they’re desperate-

Kristan: You’re exactly right.

Jim: … they’re looking for, uh, you know, a way out. But they say, “If I just had one person-

Kristan: One person.

Jim: … saying, ‘We can do this together.'”

Kristan: And- and she’ll tell you at the pregnancy center … I wrote a book, uh, back in 2010, where I interviewed Students for Life leaders, young women we met on campuses, all who had an abortion story. In every story, every person we interviewed, the difference between life and death was one person.

Jim: Yeah.

Kristan: Finding … If she was able to find one person to tell her she didn’t have to have the abortion … Not that they had all the solutions and all the answers to everything going on in- in her life at that time, but just saying, “You don’t have to do it.” You’re- you’re absolutely right. And I think that’s what’s important about what we do at Students for Life every day on campuses, where we’re going out, hosting events, starting conversations. We measure our conversations, we measure our conversion. We have a 10% conversion rate last semester on campuses.

Jim: That’s fantastic.

Kristan: Um, and that’s, you know, that’s hard to get p- young people to- to admit that they’re, you know, they were wrong to your face. Online, the conversion rates much, always much higher because you’re just committing it to yourself. But then, you know, it’s not just hosting these events and starting the conversation. It’s building up these groups, Students for Life groups, on high school, college campuses, that are this remaining force, uh, that are constant. They’re hosting educational displays, talking about the violence of abortion, talking about the resources in their community and then pressuring the university themselves to change their own policies-

Jim: Right.

Kristan: … to support pregnant and parenting women to be that one person.

Jim: Yeah.

Kristan: So, we have tons of stories of that-

Jim: Yeah, and I want to hear-

Kristan: … one person meeting that girl.

Jim: Yeah. And- and I guess the good way to describe that is, you try to be that friend.

Kristan: Yeah, that’s right.

Jim: You try to be that one person-

Kristan: Yeah.

Jim: … that one entity that can help her make the better decision.

Kristan: That’s right.

Jim: Give us a couple of those stories-

Kristan: Sure.

Jim: … of women that you’ve helped.

Kristan: Yeah. Um, one of the stories that is- is a recent story President Trump highlighted a couple years ago, I didn’t know about until I was watching on TV and I was like, “Why didn’t anyone tell me this?”

Jim: (laughs).

Kristan: Uh, one of our students in Fresno, uh, approached the Students for Life table, took one of the- the fetal models, the rubber fetal models-

Jim: Yeah.

Kristan: … um, went to Planned Parenthood, uh, was gonna have an abortion. Uh, Jessica walked out of the Planned Parenthood abortion facility, after they told her, you know, “You have to do this. You’re Latina, you know, you’re the first one in your- your family to graduate college. You’re not gonna achieve your goals.” Uh, so she walked out. And the next week, she found the Students for Life group again, on campus, tabling about abortion, tabling about non-violent alternatives in our community. Walked right up to them and said, “Okay, now what do I do? I c-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Kristan: … I’m not gonna have this abortion. Now, what do I do?” And, uh, it’s an incredible story of just how the entire, uh, Fresno state Students for Life group came around this young mother, uh, helped her through … You know, went with her to university meetings where they had to kind of stand up for her rights as a pregnant student on campus. Um, Jessica eventually, uh, became the President of the Students for Life group, as a mother. Uh, walked in her master’s graduation with her son with her. It’s an incredible story. And there’s all kinds of stories like that of just having that presence on campus, uh, as a Students for Life group, highlighting all that’s there that the group is willing to do, whether it’s baby diaper drives, baby showers, free babysitting nights that these Students for Life groups do. Um, they’re that voice to say, “You don’t have to make this false choice. You don’t have to choose between your education, or- or the way you see your life going and your child.”

Jim: Yeah.

Kristan: You can do both. It’s not going to be easy, but you can do both.

Jim: You know, I’m- I’m stuck back at what you said a moment ago about how they try to tell this young lady-

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … that if she has a baby, she will destroy her life.

Kristan: That’s right.

Jim: I- I mean, what I’m hearing is, if you’re a mom, you’re a loser.

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And it’s so bizarre that-

Kristan: It’s antiquated.

Jim: … it’s so, it’s … Yes, it’s that. But it’s also so bizarre that they’ve been able to achieve a certain level-

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … of dividing a mother from her baby.

Kristan: Yeah.

Jim: It’s so contrary to God’s nature.

John: Hmm.

Jim: A- a mom-

Kristan: Yes.

Jim: … has that desire. She has that nature and that nurture-

Kristan: Mm-hmm. That’s right.

Jim: … to be there for that baby. And it- it’s kind of profound in a sad way that they have done such devastation-

Kristan: That’s right.

Jim: … to that natural ability of a mom.

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And to label that person, “You’re not gonna succeed.”

Kristan: That’s right.

Jim: You can do it.

Kristan: Yeah.

Jim: Today, you can do it. You can have a career. You can be a mom. You- you can get married, which is a better way to go, right? And, uh, yet, I- I do think they’re unfortunately successful in-

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … brainwashing young women, uh, that they will never succeed if they have a baby. What a lie from the pit of hell.

Kristan: No. And- and that, and that lie didn’t just start, you know, recently. I mean, you think about the 1960s and the, and the second wave of the feminist movement and how, you know, in the 70s you started seeing advertising, marketing in America shift from a mother being this put together nicely dressed woman who can handle it all, to becoming this disheveled person and the career woman is the one who’s put together and has it all going on. And I mean, that started way before I was even conceived or thought of. And- and that’s what we’ve seen on- on these campuses. And we call it … When I’m speaking to young women I’ll ask them, “Why are you falling for this antiquated lies of the abortion industry? You know you’re strong enough.” You know, we’ve been told, you know, ever since we were little girls in schools that we are equal to boys and we can achieve, you know, even more than boys can achieve. And if you look at the college, you know, uh, you know, graduation rates, more women are graduating college now than men. Um, so I mean, that’s a whole nother problem and whole nother broadcast next we need to bring on there. Um, but why do you feel that you have to succumb to these lies of the abortion industry?

Jim: Yeah.

Kristan: They are … Abortion is the opposite of empowerment to young women.

Jim: It truly is.

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And I’m so proud of what pregnancy resource centers do around the country-

Kristan: That’s right.

Jim: … it’s- it’s an awesome movement. They are there for that woman-

Kristan: That’s right.

Jim: … to help her in so many practical ways.

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Uh, you’re not gonna get that at a Planned Parenthood clinic.

Kristan: No.

Jim: Sorry. Or any other-

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … abortion clinic. They’re into making the money off the abortion-

Kristan: That’s right.

Jim: … and you’re out the door.

Kristan: Yep.

Jim: And, uh, that’s the plain truth. Um, and of course, we do our Option Ultrasound-

John: Option Ultrasound.

Jim: … program here, which helps equip those pregnancy resource centers with the ultrasound machine to show the mom her baby. And oftentimes, the majority of women will choose life when they have they counseling and see that baby.

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You know, in the womb it’s so amazing, that baby will be sucking its thumb-

John: Yeah.

Jim: … it’ll be waving its hands, you know? This is a living human being and that’s the battle we’re trying to win.

John: Yeah. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And, uh, at our website you’ll be able to see all the details about, uh, Students for Life and about Option Ultrasound and ways that you can be equipped to stand for life. Just stop by the site. Uh, that’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast, or call 800, the letter A, and the word, FAMILY.

Jim: Kristan, I want to kind of get into that moment that you’re on a campus and you’re having these exchanges with students that, you know, it’s almost … There is a … My expression of this, there’s almost … I’ve seen the videos on YouTube. It’s almost like a militancy-

Kristan: Yeah.

Jim: … and a block uniform think that they show up in-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … you know? It- it’s the typical congregation-

Kristan: Yeah.

Jim: … of thinkers on the left, you know, the LGBTQ crowd and the pro-abortion people. And by the way, I no longer call them pro-choice. That is-

Kristan: Thank you.

Jim: … not an accurate statement.

Kristan: I’ve only been campaigning for that for 15 years.

Jim: It is pro-abortion.

Kristan: That’s right.

Jim: So, uh, you know, I think all of us in the Christian community don’t give them the dignity of choice. That’s not what they’re about-

Kristan: No.

Jim: … ever. Uh, they’re about 600, $700-

Kristan: They get very angry when you say that, though (laughs).

Jim: Right. But it’s not. It’s … Yeah, it’s a lofty-

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … sounding title.

Kristan: It is.

Jim: But it’s not who they are.

Kristan: No, that’s right.

Jim: And especially the leaders of that movement. But describe, uh, being in that kind of angry, aggressive context. I mean, you know, for me, I do want to have a discussion. I want to keep the dialogue open.

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: The Lord, I think, really does command us to, uh-

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … maintain that. But boy, our own temperament, the way that we’re wired can really trip us up in that environment where there’s unloading of this-

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … emotion coming at us. How do you frame it? How do you go about engaging-

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … with somebody who’s frothing at the mouth and seemingly want to hurt you-

Kristan: Yeah.

Jim: … because of what it is you believe?

Kristan: Well, I- I’m very lucky. I mean, my- my singular prayer usually when I step onto an environment like that is, “Come Holy Spirit.” You know, so-

Jim: It’s a good start.

Kristan: … I … It’s a good start.

Jim: (laughs).

Kristan: And, you know, words will come out of my mouth sometimes and I’ll watch the video later, I’m like, “Oh man, where did that come from?” Uh, it was not in any written remarks I had or thoughts I was having. And so, uh, the Holy Spirit does come and I think he gives you that sense of peace and calm when you’re having those discussions. And I think, you know, for me, when I’m having that discussion with a young person, uh, especially when they get really angry, um, you have to understand you’re probably talking to a walking wounded person. I mean, with the- the array of abortion in our country, um, likely that person’s been involved in abortion or has had an abortion or knows someone they love who’s had an abortion. Um, and so, there’s some sort of hurt there. Often I get young people … And this, I know this is an issue close to your heart, Jim, who have been raised in the foster care system and they’re very hurt by what their parents did to them by how, by something that happened to them in the system. And, um, they’re there and sadly they’ll, you know, they’ll say, “Well, I don’t think anybody has any value. I don’t have any value.”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Kristan: And so, you’re dealing with somebody who’s … It’s not just arguing a political argument about abortion or even a human rights argument about this child that they’ll never know. It’s having an argument with them, themselves that they have value. I know I- I have to start out all my speeches on campuses now reminding students that they have value. Like, I’ve- I take a point-

Jim: Yeah, they themselves.

Kristan: Yes, yeah.

Jim: (laughs).

Kristan: I- I take, I- I t- … I give a pregnancy helpline, uh, for standingwithyou.org, which is our kind of comprehensive resource of pregnancy centers and, uh, government funded non-abortion agencies. I talk about post-abortive healing and then I, then I always end with, “And you have value. No matter how much you hate me, or how much you may disagree with me, I want you to know that I believe you have value and you had a right to be born.” Um, those are like the three standard things I have to always, you know, make sure I go through. And so, I think that helps have, you know, have peace in those conversations when someone’s screaming at you, or, you know, calling me nasty names, or-

Jim: Yeah.

Kristan: … threatening my children. Um, I- I tend to get more, I guess, angry when it’s a person who comes up … I’m just, I’m thinking about my last campus I was at this fall semester, University of Florida, where a young man who kept professing his Christian faith and using it to justify abortion. Uh, it … I think I probably lost my cool in that one.

Jim: Yeah. And it’s not well-informed.

Kristan: Uh, and so, it’s with Christians that I tend to lose my, uh, my coolness with, uh, because I’m like, “You should know better. You know, of all the things, why are you quoting scripture to me trying to justify killing God’s children?” Uh, but yeah. No, I think that helps. I- I, and I also think we’re all called to different things too. I’m, I am much better in a hostile situation where people are screaming at me, because-

Jim: Y- you’re pretty calm.

Kristan: I- I’m calm and I’m- I’m also thinking about what I’m saying and what people who are watching the conversation-

Jim: Yeah.

Kristan: … are thinking. Because often I have 50 students who are watching the conversation, so I’m pointing out the illogic position that they have taken. And I get to see … I have the best view in the whole deal, because I get to see the little light bulbs go off in all the-

Jim: Yeah.

Kristan: … audiences’, you know, minds.

Jim: Well, and that’s what’s so good. Um, you know, again, one of the things that we’ve done for years here is that Option Ultrasound, but that now has expanded-

Kristan: Yeah. It’s beautiful.

Jim: … into so many efforts within the pro-life community.

Kristan: Yes.

Jim: For example, certainly the placement of the machines in the clinics, but also developing an, a powerful app, uh, My Choice Network, that gets all the independent, uh, pregnancy resource centers kind of connected in community. And we’re able to do national or regional ad campaigns-

Kristan: That’s awesome.

Jim: … on an app when a woman searches “abortion”-

Kristan: That’s right.

Jim: … “need abortion”, and that has exponentially-

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … uh, sent women to these clinics to get-

Kristan: That’s right.

Jim: … uh, advice on having the baby, and saving the baby’s life. That’s been powerful. I mean, I mean hundreds of thousands of appointments-

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … in the, uh, pro-life community. That’s been a great success. The other, which we hadn’t talked about, but it’s something I’ve thought about going all the way back during the Obama administration. We always talk about women, uh, keeping that child, but adoption is an option.

Kristan: That’s right.

Jim: A better option than ending the life of your child.

Kristan: That’s right.

Jim: But one of the difficulties we have is we don’t have a national kind of adoption, waiting adoption list of parents-

Kristan: That’s right.

Jim: … who want a newborn infant. So, we are attempting to work with agencies, adoption agencies to develop a national database-

Kristan: That’s fantastic.

Jim: … and if we can, you know … There’s about a million a- abortions every year. And from our research, about a million people that would do the adoption. We just need to link these up. So, we’re working hard in that same space with Option Ultrasound to put money toward developing that, uh, list so that women will have options, pre-qualified adoptive parents-

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … who are Christians and want to get involved in this way. That is another noble approach.

Kristan: That’s right. And I’m so thankful for what you’re doing, because that’s so, so needed. I just interviewed a woman a couple months ago on my podcast, Explicitly Pro-Life. Uh, and-

Jim: Say it again.

Kristan: Explicitly Pro-Life.

Jim: Yeah.

Kristan: Uh, and she’s a foster care advocate in Jacksonville, child psychologist. And just talking about what’s happening in the foster care system in Florida and- and how hard it was for her family to adopt a child. And, um, the blessing of- of her child, uh, that she was able to adopt. It’s so … It should not be this hard. But you think about politics. Politics is a place so the agent, uh-

Jim: Yeah.

Kristan: You know, we need better state laws about a-, you know, f- to help adopting families. The rising cost of adoption in our country. We don’t, we don’t talk about those things alot.

Jim: Right.

Kristan: Um, there needs to be folks coming together to address some of the real concerns we have, you know, and folks have with the foster care agencies in states or how, you know, the certain-

Jim: Oh, Christians are being sidelined-

Kristan: E- e- exactly.

Jim: … in some of these states from adopting or from being in foster care.

Kristan: Exactly.

Jim: It’s horrible. But this is so good. And h- here’s an irony. You know, we have got the metrics down. It’s $60 to save a baby’s life through the Option Ultrasound program that I’ve talked about. So, I hope people will engage that way. Um, Jean and I are doing that. You know, we try to, uh, do that every month to save babies-

Kristan: Thank you.

Jim: … uh, through the program. And, uh-

Kristan: You can change a young person’s mind about abortion for $12 a month.

Jim: Hey- hey, I’m in.

John: (laughs).

Kristan: If you do, it stands for life.

Jim: Yeah, let’s do that. I’ll support you.

Kristan: I’ll match you and you match me.

Jim: That’ll be great. And, uh, you know, again, this is just a way to engage in all of the great work that’s being done. Um, Kristan, it’s important to mention the fact that another thing that we’re involved with, along with the pregnancy resource centers, is the abortion reversal pill. So, this is a very safe thing to do.

Kristan: That’s right.

Jim: Once a woman has taken that first pill, uh, they can get the reversal pill, if they do within about 24, 48 hours.

Kristan: That’s right.

Jim: It can actually restore the baby and- and no harm. Uh, there’s long-term studies that have watched this. I think 5,000 babies, uh, were-

Kristan: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … uh, looked at clinically. All c- solid healthy children. But, and this is all hormone treatment.

Kristan: That’s right.

Jim: I mean, they- they blast the baby with a hormone in order to start the process and then you can reverse that.

Kristan: That’s right.

Jim: So, I would encourage women who are maybe in that spot to, uh, think about quickly, uh, and you can get a hold of a pregnancy resource center. Call 1-800-A-FAMILY. We could put you in touch with somebody right away and a nurse will be on the line with you.

Kristan: Yeah. That’s awesome. And go to standingwithyou.org and start a chat with Heartbeat International instantly and-

Jim: Yeah.

Kristan: … they’re the ones who founded the Abortion Pill Reversal Network and they can get the protocol going.

Jim: Kristan, thank you for what you do. I’m so delighted that we could have you on Focus so that you could express what you’re seeing at the ground level. There’s nothing that beats being on the ground-

Kristan: That’s right.

Jim: … and talking with people and I admire the fact that you’re doing it. I’d encourage people to take a look at your YouTubes-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … because those are really good instructors-

Kristan: They are.

Jim: … on how to deal with angry people-

Kristan: (laughs).

Jim: … in your face and the way that you’re able to, you know, respond to them with logic-

Kristan: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Jim: … with compassion, with spiritual insight. Keep on going.

Kristan: Well, thank you for what you guys do and your Option Ultrasound. And it’s- it’s incredible just to hear a refresher of all that Focus on the Family is doing right now to- to change our culture and save lives and help mothers. So-

Jim: Well, thank the Lord for people with big hearts that give-

Kristan: That’s right.

Jim: … to help this effort and your effort as well.

Kristan: That’s right.

Jim: So, thanks for being with us.

Kristan: Thank you.

John: Well, I hope you’ve been encouraged to donate to Focus on the Family today to save a baby’s life. Uh, we’re a phone call away, 800, the letter A, and the word, FAMILY. 800-232-6459. Or stop by the website for, uh, the link and all the details. That’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And on behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.

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